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CAL
Damn Your Eyes!!

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 2123
Post Who's voting for GORE - post here!!

Please post your thoughts if you are going to vote for Gore, I'm interested if the net loss of certain freedoms to feel safe is alright with you.

Thanks

The Gore Gun Agenda
Al's ultimate objective would be to abolish all firearms privacy.

By Dave Kopel, Independence Institute


hat's in the future for the anti-gun agenda, should Al Gore be elected President? Just drop by the website for Handgun Control, Inc., to find out.


There's only a short interval from the keyboards at HCI to the lips of the President and Vice President. On the site, you'll find details about comes next — but not what comes after that. Nor will you find any details on what HCI Chair Sarah Brady says is her long-term objective: a "needs-based licensing" system, in which gun ownership is allowed only when the police determine that the would-be owner "needs" the gun.

How does one get from the current Clinton/Gore/HCI program to the needs-based licensing system? In other words, what would a Gore administration push for, if it achieved the current items on the anti-gun agenda?

Perhaps the best guide is the 1994 report of the White House Working Group, a secret memo which was uncovered by U.S. News and World Report. Here's the long-term strategy:

Complete Gun Licensing and Registration
First, the attack on the non-existent "gun show loophole" is only a warm-up. The ultimate objective is to abolish all firearms privacy. Every firearms transfer — including a Christmas gift from one's cousin — would have to be routed through a federally-licensed dealer, and recorded by the federal government.

A government license would also be needed to purchase ammunition.

All currently owned firearms would have to be registered with the federal government, and non-registration would be a federal crime. During the Democratic primaries, Bill Bradley called for national gun registration, while Gore rejected Bradley's plan as politically unrealistic. Gore was correct; for registration to be politically possible, it needs to be built on an existing system of licensing. Salami tactics are the essence of successful gun control.

The Clinton/Gore proposal for a national ID card for handgun purchasers is a sensible "moderate" and "common-sense" step toward the goal of total licensing and registration for all guns. Politically speaking, it is best if the initial stages of gun licensing can be implemented liberally (as rifle licensing was in Britain in the 1920s and 1930s) so that most people can get the license. Once licensing is in place, the bureaucracy can take care of gradually tightening the licensing process (without ever needing to ask the legislature to change the law), so that hardly anyone qualifies for a license (as rifle licensing currently is enforced in Britain).

Hunting Restrictions
While the White House licensing and registration system would apply to all guns, especially strict rules would be imposed on owners of handguns and for self-loading long guns (such as the Marlin Camp Carbine or the Ruger .22 rifles). Appropriating a term of art from Canadian gun law, the White House would designate all handguns and all self-loading long guns as "restricted weapons." Owners of "restricted weapons" could possess them only at home, at work, or at a target range.

In other words, it would be a federal crime to go bird hunting with a Remington 1100 shotgun. Handgun hunting, which is legal in every state in the Union, would vanish.

President Clinton and Vice President Gore strenuously insist that none of the laws which they have signed, and none of the regulations they have created, have interfered with hunting. Although Clinton and Gore are not correct in their claim, their "restricted weapons" agenda would remove their pro-hunting mask, and take away the primary sporting arms of millions of American hunters.

Bans on Defensive Gun Use and Possession
It would also be a federal crime to carry a handgun in public for protection — even for people with state licenses authorizing them to carry.

The White House memo also recommends consideration of a federal law to outlaw "the carrying of firearms in...work sites." The White House proposal would override current laws of many states, which allow a person who runs a dry cleaning shop that stays open late to choose to carry a concealed gun for protection. Or an accountant who stays at work late during March and April, can choose whether to keep a handgun in her desk, and carry it with her when she walks to the parking lot late at night.

The White House Working Group praises the 1976 Bartley-Fox law in Massachusetts. This law imposes a mandatory one year term in prison for carrying a gun without a permit. In one notorious case, the law was applied to a man who started carrying a gun after a co-worker assaulted him, and repeatedly threatened to kill him. The co-worker did attack later, and the victim successfully defended himself. The crime victim was then sentenced to a mandatory one year in prison for carrying a gun without a permit. This is the kind of law that the Clinton/Gore administration wants to apply nationwide.

Banning More Guns
The Clinton/Gore memo states that domestic manufacture of guns should be brought under the federal government's regulatory standards for product designs. The White House memo predicts that such regulation would outlaw "Many handguns now manufactured in the United States for civilian use." With great applause from the White House, a forerunner of the White House plan was recently imposed in Massachusetts, by the administrative edict of the state Attorney General. The result of the new standards was to ban the sale of all handguns except the Smith & Wesson models.



CAL



------------------
"The desert is my church, and hunting is my god."

[This message has been edited by CAL (edited 09-28-2000).]

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Old Post 09-28-2000 08:43 PM
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Feral Automaton
control your staffs

Registered: Jul 2000
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Why do you need to have your guns Cal?

Are you a short person?

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Old Post 09-28-2000 08:58 PM
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Paint CHiPs
Smartest Man in the World

Registered: Jul 2000
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Harry Browne does not support the pilfering of the blue dimensional animals.

Vote for Harry Browne!

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Old Post 09-28-2000 09:02 PM
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Boobsnbuds
Puddly Guppy

Registered: Jul 2000
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I've said it before, I'll say it again.

I'll bury my .45 in the back yard if any of this shit happens.

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Old Post 09-28-2000 09:19 PM
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splAt
Usually Courteous

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It is just ridiculous. I wonder what kind of person thinks new laws restricting or punishing gun ownership will make them safer. There are already plenty of laws with stiff penalties for using a gun illegally. These laws have little or no effect because the few people who are actually prosecuted spend little to no time in prison. And, since they were criminals anyway, why would they care about breaking one more law while they are violating a dozen other laws?
The only people who I think would feel safer are the criminals. The police would have just as many armed criminals to deal with and the criminals would have no worries in pulling a pistol on a law abiding citizen.
I don't have any interest in shooting for sport. I don't enjoy the idea of standing outside all day so I can kill an animal. The only reason I own a gun is for defending my family, my house, and myself.
Fuck Al Gore.

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Old Post 09-28-2000 10:37 PM
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Rav
Nothing

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I'd vote for Al Gore, but I can't so I won't, so thats that!

------------------
Just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean that they aren't watching me!

No sugar thanks, I'm sweet enough already!

Orange does not rhyme with door hinge!

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Old Post 09-28-2000 11:25 PM
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flocat
PINKO

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"More for Gore / Or the son of a drug-lord? / None of the above! / Fuck it, cut the cord!"

that's my take on the issue. make a statement, vote socialist.

------------------
Wherever you see someone struggling to be free, you'll see me.

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Old Post 09-28-2000 11:32 PM
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splAt
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Why would you vote for Gore, Rav? Is your opinion based entirely on his intention to make it illegal to own a gun here?
The only people who think socialism is a good idea are people who intend to do nothing with themselves and hope to be supported by the productive people.

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Old Post 09-28-2000 11:44 PM
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Fiend
Medically crazy

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Harry Browne does not support communist limeys! Vote Harry Browne!!!

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Old Post 09-28-2000 11:54 PM
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flocat
PINKO

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quote:
Originally posted by splAt:
The only people who think socialism is a good idea are people who intend to do nothing with themselves and hope to be supported by the productive people.


You obviously know nothing about me. Stick to your stereotypes if you wish. That is your decision but keep in mind, generalization of a group can create another holocaust.



------------------
Wherever you see someone struggling to be free, you'll see me.

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Old Post 09-29-2000 12:05 AM
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splAt
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quote:
Originally posted by flocat:
You obviously know nothing about me. Stick to your stereotypes if you wish. That is your decision but keep in mind, generalization of a group can create another holocaust.




I guess than that you are not the common socialist who intends to be carried by the productive people.
You must be the rare socialist who loves and wants to help your fellow man so much you think the rest of us should be forced to pay for it.

How do you justify any attempt to force me to be as selfless as you are?

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Old Post 09-29-2000 12:44 AM
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DevilMoon
passive stalker?

Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by flocat:
You obviously know nothing about me. Stick to your stereotypes if you wish. That is your decision but keep in mind, generalization of a group can create another holocaust.


De-arming the public could do that as well.

DM

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Old Post 09-29-2000 07:33 AM
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melon
Fishleader

Registered: Jul 2000
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ill vote for Gore, unless he is a nazi and is going to create another holocaust.

maybe we should carry fish in our pants and not guns. the world would be a safer place.

------------------
ALL HAIL FISHLEADER!
you may be british.
join the FISHNATION music group!

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Old Post 09-29-2000 08:38 AM
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Rav
Nothing

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What the fuck do you need to carry guns for?
How many of you would actually shoot someone anyway? I mean if it was a choice between your life and theirs then fair enough. But how can you justify shooting someone because they've stolen your wallet. Guns for the public also increases the chance of more road-rage deaths...but thats just my opinion.

------------------

Just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean that they aren't watching me!

No sugar thanks, I'm sweet enough already!

Orange does not rhyme with door hinge!

[This message has been edited by Rav (edited 09-29-2000).]

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Old Post 09-29-2000 09:24 AM
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HELL
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quote:
Originally posted by Rav:
What the fuck do you need to carry guns for?
How many of you would actually shoot someone anyway? I mean if it was a choice between your life and theirs then fair enough. But how can you justify shooting someone because they've stolen your wallet. Guns for the public also increases the chance of more road-rage deaths...but thats just my opinion.




if someone puts themselves in a position to be shot they should be, im sure if the person who is snatching your wallet would have no problems shooting you if they hadnt pawned their gun for crack.

yes i would shoot someone for taking my wallet, not because money means much to me, but the whole violation thing does. they crossed a line, they should be punished by the victims hand. and as far as if i could or not, rest assure i could.

i will not rely on the government to keep me safe. the last time i was a victim, i was stalked for one year, the cops couldnt do any thing about it, or maybe they didnt think it was a big deal that a stripper was being stalked. the loonie bastard thought jesus wanted me to bear his fucking children, he gave me all his trophies from when he was in school, his letter jacket, a tape of him repeating he loved me over and over again on it, like 5 bibles, and a whole bunch of other crap.
he had been in institutes for the last 10 years and they still couldnt do any thing. i got a gun then. i told him i did and he never followed me home again.

they say criminals can spot a victim, and if they took our guns away we would all look like one.

now in your country there may not be wide spread ownership of guns, many of the law breakers may not have guns in your country, they do here. so i believe all the law abiders need and should, as patriots, own a gun. when i was down in guatemala the only ones who had guns were the government and the gorrilla millitants, you should have seen the crap that was going on there. fuck that.

i dont think our government is as evil as some like to rant about, but i dont think they should be the only ones armed alongside the criminals.

and the fact that the democrats [janet reno] got no punishment or the hate from all american people for the ruby ridge, and wako thing just blows my fucking mind.
time for us to pull our heads out of our fucking asses.

splat said it all in his post.
i havnt heard one democrat or communist say anything that was a realist point of view. we dont live in a walt disney movie people.
assuming that the majority of humanity are good people and people who do bad things just need a hug is just plain stupid to me.

good morning------no coffee yet..

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Old Post 09-29-2000 10:18 AM
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Rav
Nothing

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I'm not sure of the rules and laws to owning a gun in America.
Who is entitled to have one?

------------------

Just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean that they aren't watching me!

No sugar thanks, I'm sweet enough already!

Orange does not rhyme with door hinge!

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Old Post 09-29-2000 10:21 AM
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HELL
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legally, people who are not felons, are not mentally unstable, havnt stalked anyone and who register.
laws very from state to state.
but it is easy for anyone to buy a gun off the street, but if you are cought with an unregisterd gun you are supposed to get punished which is something the democrats have failed to follow through with lately.

they would rather just take all of our guns, and scare us in to thinking that is the only way.
democrats seem to believe the perfect u.s.a. is one who is dependent on the government for everything in more issues than just this one.
that is the main difference between republicans and democrats. i am niether but i think our personal freedoms are important to hold on to.


morning rav!

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Old Post 09-29-2000 10:29 AM
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Rav
Nothing

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Morning Hell.

Don't get me wrong, I totally respect your right to protect yourself. But from what I know - which probably isn't much - it seems far to easy for anyone to walk in and get a gun. As you said, legally people who are not felons, are not mentally unstable, havent stalked anyone and who register can own a gun. But without a stringent application procedure how can this be known?

------------------

Just because I'm paranoid it doesn't mean that they aren't watching me!

No sugar thanks, I'm sweet enough already!

Orange does not rhyme with door hinge!

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Old Post 09-29-2000 10:38 AM
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Shadow23
in dust we trust

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Denver
Posts: 1277
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Gun liberty is mostly a healthy fear of oppressive government, instilled by our history. If the feds know too much about who has guns, this is rendered moot. Those who would commit crimes with them do not care if they commit another crime by not registering. Those who are generally law-abiding see a healthy fear in giving our name & number to the feds simply because a gun is owned.

Gore is a robot married to a censor. Bush is a dumb-ass fratboy gone wrong.
I'm with Paint on this one, Vote Harry Browne!

------------------
3030303

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Old Post 09-29-2000 10:44 AM
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HELL
euphorbia's bad side

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well to register is to wait seven days while they check your back ground.

but with freedom comes responsability, people are going to break lawsno matter what, i think id rather be shot than stabbed or strangled. people die. we look at the pictures of murdered people put on the news so the commercials they put on after of the smiling satisfied people will make us want to buy the product so we too can escape this world of rape and murder and be as happy as the people drinking pepsi. thats how they make money, and if you havnt noticed they are some rish bastards.
anywho, my point is people die, bad shit happens, its life, nature, ectect.only now we have it shoved in our face for the reasons stated above. only now death seems to come more violently because of modern medicines. just imagine the things we would see if india or china had freedom of press?
id be buying lots of pepsi then.

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Old Post 09-29-2000 10:50 AM
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HELL
euphorbia's bad side

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ive just been informed here in Va it is different. i lived in Fla, texas, louisiana, Cal, bla bla, and the laws are all different.
california had the stiffest laws and it is one of the worst states as far as crime goes, new york too, but i never lived there, splat has.
maybe an aussie can tell us what happened in their country after guns were banned. their population is smaller or more spread out, but i believe even they had some crime problems after it happened.

[This message has been edited by HELL (edited 09-29-2000).]

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Old Post 09-29-2000 11:20 AM
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splAt
Usually Courteous

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It is very easy for criminals to buy guns through illegal channels. Why shouldn't it be easy for citizens to buy guns legally?

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Old Post 09-29-2000 11:56 AM
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Method Dan
Fluffy Bunny

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
Posts: 458
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I'm actually not sure who I'm voting for, since I happened to turn 18 in time for this year's election. I'm inclined to vote for Gore even though he's scum, because if I voted Republican I would have to use the firearms rights they grant me to blow my brains out in a Walmart, that's simply wrong. If I voted my conscience I'd have to go Green (which I registered as) or Libertarian, but neither Browne nor Nader are going to get elected because Americans are not only lazy shits who can't be fucked to get involved with their government and find out about parties other than the Republocratic party (thank you Ted Rall), but the ones who are inclined to vote and have the time (IE old people) are a conservative, old fashioned lot who think fags are gross (rather than the superior human beings that they usually are) and think America is God's country, when in fact it's God-FORSAKEN.

(My mother's argument is, I should vote Gore because G. "Dubya" Bush doesn't have any smaller conservative parties taking votes away from him, whereas Al "No Personality" Gore has liberal votes taken from him by the Greens and Libertarians and whatnot. She has a point, hence I'm inclined to vote Gore simply because I consider him the lesser of two evils.)

I have to admit, like most of my generation, I'm apathetic and probably could stand to be better read on the politics of the day. But I do intend on voting, I'd prefer to be able to go about my business without having to engage in civil disobedience. For instance, I'm sure if Republicans had their way, it would be illegal for me to get my dick sucked, especially by, god forbid, a GUY. While the notion doesn't thrill me, I like knowing I CAN legally if the urge strikes me.

On the original issue, firearms, I support gun control in that I don't think any shithead should be free to immediate access to any implement of death he can afford; these things should be regulated and kept out of the hands of the criminally inclined and habitually stupid (if you need an automatic weapon, you're probably up to something illegal; civilians don't need that kind of firepower). But conversely, I love my 2nd Amendment rights, I fancy myself a recreational marksman and might even own a gun/guns someday. I have no interest in hunting and while I'd kind of like to sometime before I die, realistically I'd rather never have to shoot a person, especially not in my home where the blood and shit would make a mess. The government doesn't seem able to stem the black market gun trade, so it's only fair to let us law abiding civilian have access to our own weapons. In a perfect world, guns would be totally unnecessary, though I dunno about anyone else, but I sure as hell don't think I live in such a utopia. I suspect I'm starting to state the glaringly obvious, but violence is inevitable. If no one has a gun, people with use knives and truncheons.

Lastly, I'm not interested in government babysitting for idiots, I'd rather be free to do what I like and take responsibility for myself (especially since I already can't sponge any government assistance). The only place where I believe the government should babysit ('babysit' meaning, to relieve people of their personal responsibility, i'm sure you know what i'm talking about) is people's reproductive tracts. It's fucking ridiculous that it took me months of practice and one failed test to get my driver's license, but by now I could be the father of god knows how many welfare leeching little wastes of oxygen (except that would necessitate getting laid, but I digress, that's another rant altogether). All children should be sterilized at birth and not allowed to become fertile until they have demonstrated themselves to be fiscally and psychologically fit to raise children, and at that time they may produce no more than 2 children. I include myself in this statement: Even I, with my enormous brain and endless reserves of talent, should not be allowed to procreate.

...and I'm spent.

------------------
-Method Dan

[This message has been edited by Method Dan (edited 09-29-2000).]

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Old Post 09-29-2000 11:58 AM
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HELL
euphorbia's bad side

Registered: Aug 2000
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"I have to admit, like most of my generation, I'm apathetic and probably could stand to be better read on the politics of the day. But I do intend on voting, I'd prefer to be able to go about my business without having to engage in civil disobedience. For instance, I'm sure if Republicans had their way, it would be illegal for me to get my dick sucked, especially by, god forbid, a GUY. While the notion doesn't thrill me, I like knowing I CAN legally if the urge strikes me."
quote from dan----


dan, i love you and all but.....
the government changes with the people.
what said in this part of your reply is way out of date.
anywho, i admit that bush is not my ideal guy, but untill reform of the elections happens there will be no real choice other than the republicans and the democrats unless the media out of the goodness of their hearts helps them along. thats just the way it is.

in this election you have two choices.

one guy who wants governments hand in every aspect of your life, and only some people deserve tax relief, while others pay more than their share. makeing new laws at every whim.

and one guy who thinks we should be able to have choices, and every one is equal and no one should be singled out. inforcing the already made laws, insuring we hold on to the few freedoms we still have and punishing law breakers harshly.

i think you should really look at the progress bush has made in texas. keep in mind how many mexican there are in texas and the special needs they have.
for a spoiled rich dumb ass he has done real fucking good, dont you think?

please look into it for yourself.

i got nuthin but love for ya

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Old Post 09-29-2000 12:21 PM
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aminal
incomplete

Registered: Jul 2000
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I am not voting for either of them... mainly because i dont have the vote, but even if i did, i still wouldn't vote.

------------------
a /\/\ i n a l

"KRACKK! goes the hymen"

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Old Post 09-29-2000 12:25 PM
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