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357magnum
Bunny in the box

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: London, England
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I think the dog should get an award, he obviously was dragging the boy away from a dangerous situation in order to save him.

Phil, I hope you explained to social implecations of barking at only black people to your racist dog.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 09:56 AM
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FuhQall
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Hey it's the other me.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 09:58 AM
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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
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quote:
Originally posted by 357magnum
Phil, I hope you explained to social implecations of barking at only black people to your racist dog.


hell yeah. We sent it to racial tolerance classes

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Old Post 06-12-2002 10:01 AM
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Dingle
Gay for Mugtoe

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil
btw, on reading that again, I think the dog would be put to sleep here anyway because it attacked a nine year old kid. The skin colour ios irrelevant really.


the skin color is rarely relevant, yet the people who should most want to rid the world of color boundaries time and time again are the ones shoving their race down everyones throats.

regarding dogs and other semi-intelligent animals, mammals particularly, i havnt really thought much about it, but i dont think i agree.

i definately dont agree with your statement they lack a consiousness or consious thought, which you clarified, but i do think they have more awareness than you give them credit for.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 10:02 AM
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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13056

quote:
Originally posted by Dingle
i definately dont agree with your statement they lack a consiousness or consious thought, which you clarified, but i do think they have more awareness than you give them credit for.


fair enough. Another example to expresws what I was saying is the mirror test. Test have been done where gorilla have had what looks like a 'bindi' (little red spot) placed on their forehead. When they see themsleves in the mirror they instatly reach for their forehead and remove it. Try it with a dog or a cat and the animal with, either ignore the mirror or start running behind the mirror thinking there is another dog there, or attack the mirror. Its a very crude test I know, but there is oodles of research on it if you seek it out. BTW lack of acute self-awareness does not mean there is a lack of cognitive action on the part of the dog. Cognitive action can occur without knowing that one is doing it, like the example of the guy with 'consciousness blindness' on one side of his body.

Anyways, the issue is not about that really, its more about the fact that a nine year old kid was attacked. The dog would, as smug said, certainly be taken out of service here as Smug said, the decision to put it down would be down to the courts though and and assessment of the dog under the 'Dangerous Animals Act'.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 10:10 AM
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Smug Git
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Registered: Aug 2001
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I don't think that self-awareness tests on animals mean much, to be honest. Self-awareness is pretty hard to quantify (and is a learnt skill anyway).

I don't think that dog should be put down, but I don't think that it is fit to be a policedog anymore (as U4b says, it reacted in a stressful situation so needn't be a risk in non-police life). As Phil points out, the courts can decide that.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 10:34 AM
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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
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quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
I don't think that self-awareness tests on animals mean much, to be honest.


There are many biologists that would disagree with you on that, particular researchers in animal emotions, primate research etc etc.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 10:40 AM
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skalie
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Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
but I don't think that it is fit to be a policedog anymore


It is not fit to be a dog anymore.

Even if loses it's job it can still encounter stressfull situations.

A dog that attacks children for whatever reason is dangerous, and should be put down to remove the possibility of it repeating it's actions.

I've seen a lot of dogs in a lot of stressfull situations, dogs do not by instinct attack children, they defend them.

The dog in question here is a bad seed.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 10:48 AM
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Smug Git
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil


There are many biologists that would disagree with you on that, particular researchers in animal emotions, primate research etc etc.



If biologists agreed with me, then I would be convinced that I was wrong.

All of that research is, at root, anthropomorphisation, in my opinion.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 10:56 AM
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FuhQall
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quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
I don't think that self-awareness tests on animals mean much, to be honest. Self-awareness is pretty hard to quantify (and is a learnt skill anyway).*snip
I agree, it's not likey that it will make any difference, it will probably serve to further the cause for the animal activists who will claim that that chimps and O'tangs should be made equal members in society. I still like the fact that they have intelligence, but feel sorry for them because they will be put to sinister use due to their expendability.

Poor doggie tho, bullshit! Any animal that attacks a person should either be set free in an unpopulated area or needs to be disposed of.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 11:03 AM
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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
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quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
All of that research is, at root, anthropomorphisation, in my opinion.


I know what you mean here but are you sure that is actually a word? Anyways, there are many testing procedures on gauging levels of self-awareness. Dog and cats, and some of the smaller mammals with smalller brains, exhibit very limited, if not no self-awareness in these kinds of tests. The evidence currently suggests, that smaller species of animals, particularly mamals, lack self awareness and it is in fact there prioperception, and biological genetic make up that controls many if not all their actions independently of conscious awareness of surrounding. I will be the first to admit that if we judge animals against our own knoweldge of self-awareness then we are anthropising them to some extent, however, one can argue quite reasonably, and also logically, that testing of the condition of self-awareness shows that the majority of animals do not display the same strength of awareness as human beings. Thus far the testing has shown that primates, and dolphins are the only animals in the animal kingdom that react to stimuli and images of themselves with mirrors in a way that implies self-recognition. I know I sent you these links privately, but here they are for others to read.

Dolphin Self-awareness testing - Cambridge University

Scietific American Article 1

Scientific American Article 2

edit: BTW the only reason I raised this issue was because the women that is complaining is trying to imply that the dog has a constructed prejudice indictive of complex thought processes and social cognition in relation to society and ideas, which is utterly riduculous in my opinion.

edit2: surely believing without experimentation that animals have self-awareness like human beings is also 'anthropomorphisation' of an even more extreme kind?

Last edited by philjit on 06-12-2002 at 11:18 AM

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Old Post 06-12-2002 11:09 AM
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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

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The way I see it is that a 'Pandora's Box of Contradiction' is being opened here. Because on the one hand you have people arguing that a dog could not possibly be guilty of racial profiling, which implies a lack of consciousness to that level, and then on the other hand the same people argue that the dog must be consicous and self-aware, which in turn implies the capability to make those kind of values judgements about race, after all, if the dog is conscious then we can assume it learns and undersatnds language and then can construct social realty from the things it hears. I don't see how you can have it both ways.

The fact remains of course that a nine year old kid got attacked, and whatever the kids parents were doing, one cannot allow a dog to that because next time it could happen in a different scenario and you end up with a half chewed baby on your hands.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 11:24 AM
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skalie
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Registered: Sep 2001
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Dogs can be taught racism.

Racism doesn't need a high level of intelligence.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 11:28 AM
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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
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quote:
Originally posted by skalie
Dogs can be taught racism.

Racism doesn't need a high level of intelligence.



no the dog is not taught racism, the dog is taught to attack certain things. The dog in this sense cannot be called racist. Additionally I am not talking about intelligence. Intelligence is not equivalent to self-awareness. To be racist requires a socially contrusted consciousness, but to be trained to do something that has socially understood implications extermally of the animal is not.

P.S. I am going to work now

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Old Post 06-12-2002 11:36 AM
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skalie
Locksmith of Lurve

Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil
To be racist requires a socially contrusted consciousness,


Bollocks.

Dog learns attack people with dark skin, attack people who have eaten fried chicken.

Racism is classing people for where they come from or from their appearance.

Dogs are smart/dumb enough to learn that.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 11:40 AM
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Mugtoe
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How about the policeman going to the house of the boy who was bitten and dragged and making a sincere apology. Then the parents of the boy could say something like, "It was very traumatic, but we understand that these things happen. And we thank you for arresting that criminal in our neighborhood. Would you like a glass of iced tea?"

Then perhaps the policeman could bring the dog around on his spare time and give the boy a chance to get over whatever residual fear he had as a result of the incident and explain to the kid that in tense confusing situations like the one in question, sometimes dogs react in ways that are unfortunate.

I just wonder why the policeman didn't call on the family of the boy and try to work this out, and why the family didn't call on the policeman and ask for his help with the results of the unexpected attack. Why was the councilwoman involved at all if what the people really wanted was a solution and some understanding. Most people don't want solutions; they want publicity, attention and money for nothing.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 02:17 PM
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BnB
Suck My Ass

Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by Mugtoe

I just wonder why the policeman didn't call on the family of the boy and try to work this out, and why the family didn't call on the policeman and ask for his help with the results of the unexpected attack.



Lawyers.

If either party approached the other it can be viewed as an admission of guilt.

There WILL be a civil suit out of this, and everyone involved knows it.

It's a sad state of the world where compassion is viewed as guilt.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 02:41 PM
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shyloh
ghost of internetz past

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: NYC
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollstoy

So cops are dangerous?
You not too smart are ya Chuckles?



Uhm, dangerous situation = scene of an arrest.

also..... quoted from the article.....why didn't the guy explain this further? "A national expert on animal behavior at Tuft's University School of Veterinary Medicine said dogs not only can determine race, but can develop prejudices similar to humans. Dr. Nick Dodman said that prejudice can be based on a lack of exposure to different people or because of a bad experience. " I mean, he didn't bother to talk about studies that have been done, or research, or anything. Is anyone supposed to just say "well this guy's a VETERINERY EXPERT!! He must be 100% right!!"

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Old Post 06-12-2002 03:38 PM
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JoeyCat
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Registered: Jul 2000
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Perhaps someone should have determined if the child smelled like drugs. It's not unheard of that parents smoke pot around their kids, regardles of color.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 05:07 PM
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Dingle
Gay for Mugtoe

Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by skalie


The dog dragged a nine-year old for twenty feet.

What else it it capable of?

Death penalty.



i thought you were all peta hippy and shit... or maybe that was squee...

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Old Post 06-12-2002 05:19 PM
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euphorbia
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Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
I don't think that self-awareness tests on animals mean much, to be honest. Self-awareness is pretty hard to quantify (and is a learnt skill anyway).





quote:
Originally posted by Dingle


i definately dont agree with your statement they lack a consiousness or consious thought, which you clarified, but i do think they have more awareness than you give them credit for.




I agree. Any test we do is going to have our idea of self-awareness or other ways of thinking used to compare that of another creatureís. I donít think we can know or fully understand creatures that are so different than us and find it contemptible that we put value on them by holding them against ourselves, comparing and assigning our limited ideas to the value of another creatureÖespecially devaluing it. I donít believe we are second only to god or that all other life is beneath us and find it unfortunate that anyone does.



Back to the first point, if this dog bit my kid in this same situation, Id be plenty fucking mad...maybe calling for improvements to the button system that released the dog...but I donít think it go far beyond that leave my contempt for the worthless fuck head struggling with the cop. No way could I demand the dog die for a bite after the dog has served society the way it has...obediently, and loyal to its ungrateful - spoiled greedy - lazy - whiny society and just got confused...now that he does one thing he is no longer of any use to us? Off with his head? The dog didnít act in malice, didnít kill the boy or even rip his face off, the dog dragged him away from his master/handler (they both sit heavy on my tongue). I find the whole thing wholly disgusting and tragic - as I do when people devalue other animals because they donít equal us in certain ways. Boo humansÖIím sorry Iím one.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 05:53 PM
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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
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mammals are mammals.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 05:56 PM
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skalie
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quote:
Originally posted by euphorbia
No way could I demand the dog die for a bite after the dog has served society the way it has...obediently,


And if it was a pitbull owned by some bonehead that decided to maul a nine year old during a punch-up?

Apart from being a danger to society the dog is a coward.

"Oh fuck, my master's tussling with a big guy, think I'll take out the black kid".

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Old Post 06-12-2002 06:10 PM
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Smug Git
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil




edit2: surely believing without experimentation that animals have self-awareness like human beings is also 'anthropomorphisation' of an even more extreme kind?



I've been away from the internerd all day, but this is not so different to what I was saying. Your last edit point is true; I am saying that the tests are not relevant, rather than ascribing that quality of self awareness to animals. The whole notion of wuantifying self-awareness reminds me of nailing jelly to the ceiling. Some animals, like dolphins, are quite like us and that is what these tests show; I tend to object when things like this are used to apply moral worth to animals. I am not convinced that things like self recognition in a mirror are terribly important, for example.

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Old Post 06-12-2002 06:12 PM
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Smug Git
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And 'anthropomorphise' is in the Merriam Webster online dictionary (although spelt with a 'z' at the end, obviously).

So nerr.

(worth noting that my viewpoint would also prohibit ascribing 'rascism' to the dog)

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