quote:Originally posted by Coincidence *snip* manifesto
We already did our rebelling. The first time was over 200 years ago and was to extricate ourselves from Europe lest we become trash. The second time was during our civil war when some down south weren't keen on the idea of dispensing with their two-legged appliances. We survived both and it's been all pretty good since then. On your side of the pond, however, rebellions are as frequent and lengthy as your holidays. Physician heal thyself.
quote:Originally posted by Coincidence I know. I am just trying to describe what it is looking like from the outside. A docile sheep-population drowning in waste and lies.
But hey, there's some great bands and movie directors.
And you’re not a fucking sheep? Do you think your claims about a whole country of people are reasonable? Are anything but bigotry, ignorance and hate? Yes, you are fucking sheep coin, of the worst kind because your ignorance fuels gross bigotry, pompousness and arrogance. Congratulations.
quote:Originally posted by Coincidence It's pretty obvious from over here, that God's Own Country is going down. Morally, spiritually, economically, physically.
I'll grant you number three.
Morally? Not really. The United States has been as immoral, internationally speaking, as any western Democracy for the majority of its history. Nothing the US has done under GWB comes close to matching, say, the mechanisms behind the whole Panama Canal business. One could argue that the unwillingness of individual Americans to take an interest in anything other than the most immediate personal concerns is a moral failure, but the root causes of that problem are not new and come mainly from policies of which I'd assume you approve.
Spiritually? I've never known what the term means. It seems to be used mainly by people on the political left as a catch-all to wrap illogical arguments in a veneer of moral superiority. Don't know that I'd care to be spiritual in that sense, nor does it strike me as a concept that can be applied collectively.
Physically? No. America currently has a greater advantage over its rivals in temporal power than any other nation in the history of the world. You're on far safer ground arguing that we're rotting away from the inside.
quote:Originally posted by Coincidence I know you can't generalize americans
Do you really? Because you seem awfully, awfully quick to do so throughout the remainder of this post. Were an American to make the same statements of Islamic societies that you make here, you would consider it evidence for your thesis that Americans are stupid.
quote:Originally posted by Coincidence After Bush (or another politician) lies to you, and changes the world accordingly, you just take it - you discuss whether the lies will work, and did he seem confident etc.
It seems so powerless. And it sure is. Problem is, you're dragging parts of the world down with you.
I have to think that you are operating from a very limited and generalized concept of how Americans react to scandal. There has been no shortage of anger, on this forum and elsewhere, about the percieved lies of various politicians. Clinton faced impeachment for false comments about a matter unrelated to public policy; Bush gets smashed up, down, and sideways on this board on a daily basis by a large number of American posters, often including myself.
The fact that a President is not immediately driven from office by pitchfork-wielding mobs is not evidence that nobody cares about his policies. About 45% of America hates Bush's guts, just as about 45% of America hated Clinton's, and Bush I's, and Reagan's, and so on, and none of them just "take it." The remarkably uncivil tone of the American public forum has a lot to do with the unwillingness of those whose favorite party is out of power at the moment to "take it."
quote:Originally posted by Coincidence American: "why do they hate us so much?!"
Sentient being: "The question answers itself, moron."
When Americans make that statement, they are generally referring to Islamic societies. Those societies certainly hate America for different reasons than our apathy towards the conduct of our political leaders.
quote:Originally posted by Coincidence So where is the rebellion? Can I have some answers please?
Aside from what I've already written about the rebellion being an ever-present reality in our political discourse, I'd suggest that the sort of "rebellion" you have in mind requires a viable alternative to the status quo. A "rebellion" against George Bush in the form of support for John Kerry is, in real terms, no rebellion at all. Even on foreign policy the two men are separated by only a couple of degrees. Our political system marginalizes dramatic alternatives to the status quo to such an extent that political "rebellions" of a meaningful sort are de facto impossible.
Welcome to the forum, btw. You seem to have some good thoughts to contribute, although you could stand to be a bit less abrasive towards entire national populations.
Thank you ChipsJr.
I will not deny a bit of trolling on my part - but you managed to give a great answer.
By spiritual, I mean dependence on religious institution and ideas. I dont know if its left or right, but I always thought right.
And physically, I meant obesity.
And by rebellion, I mean people thinking for themselves, not buying into consensus. Forum posters excluded, this is not typical for the american middle class.
quote:Originally posted by Coincidence By spiritual, I mean dependence on religious institution and ideas. I dont know if its left or right, but I always thought right.
Fair enough. When referring to adherence to the preferred institutions of that sort, most Americans would use the term "religious". "Spiritual" has become a term used by the American political left to undermine the percieved moral superiority of the "religious" right; a sort of way of saying "my agnosticism is just as morally valid as your preferred superstition."
Even on its own terms, I disagree with your statement, though. America has been a LOT more collectively religious, and intolerant of alternative religions, at various times in its history than it is now. Frankly, I see religion as being a lot less significant a factor in American political life than in most underdeveloped nations; the only portions of the globe significantly more secular are Europe and East Asia. Nor is religion inherently incompatible with the operation of a strong nation-state, as has been proven on numerous occasions.
quote:Originally posted by Coincidence And physically, I meant obesity.
Can't argue with that one. Hell, I'm part of the problem.
quote:Originally posted by Coincidence And by rebellion, I mean people thinking for themselves, not buying into consensus. Forum posters excluded, this is not typical for the american middle class.
I really don't know what you're basing this on. Your blanket assumption seems to be that people who subscribe to a political orthodoxy that you don't share must be mindless automatons. This is not the case. I know several enthusiastic Republicans who would flatten you (or me) like a bug in an open debate with a neutral audience. As mentioned above, about 45% of the American public shares your general sentiment regarding the current executive leadership; are they automatons, too? Does cribbing your argumentation from Michael Moore make one more "independent-minded" than cribbing it from Rush Limbaugh?
Frankly, I don't see the repetition of strong arguments from outside sources as a intellectual flaw, or as inherently "sheeplike."
I've got students at my Catholic high school who engage in pro-life advocacy because it's what's expected of them, and I've got others who do it because they've engaged in in-depth analysis of the scientific evidence associated with abortion and consider activism to be a moral obligation. While on a given march, both groups of kids tend to act the same. That doesn't mean it's wise to make assumptions that their intellectual approach to their beliefs is identical.
In a sense that is true, but perhaps not in the way you think, tack. The problem is a messianic view of politics that makes people look to Washington to do for them what they should be doing for themselves. It is the sense that a personal regeneration and redemption, as well as accountability and responsibility for our own well-being, lies in the hands of a governmental authority thousands of miles away. It is the sense that I need not care for my neighbor, or even my brother, because that is the government's job. We do not have problems because Washington isn't doing enough to help us; we have problems because we have forgotten that there are larger things besides ourselves to think about. So yeah, resist not evil, and keep yer eyes on Jesus.