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SimpleSimon
Dead Horse Rider

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 28673

Well, if the person has been executed, one can say with a high degree of certainty that they will not again commit an offense.

For me, the problem with capital punishment is two-fold: first, philosophically, it is nonsense to support state-sanctioned murder in response to private murder, and; second, no justice system exists or can exist which is infallibly correct in its judgments.

Ethics is not my concern here. In my opinion, there are in fact people in the world who need to die - the sooner the better. The problem is in human judgment.

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Old Post 01-23-2014 12:12 AM
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gundamgarrett
the Schleprock of sex

Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 1387

quote:
Originally posted by SimpleSimon
Well, if the person has been executed, one can say with a high degree of certainty that they will not again commit an offense.



Locking them in a building forever doesn't cut it?

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Old Post 01-23-2014 12:43 AM
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theMAC
lone gunman for the govt

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1472

quote:
Originally posted by gundamgarrett
Locking them in a building forever doesn't cut it?


It's not cost effective.
Also it's less humane.

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Old Post 01-23-2014 01:00 AM
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gundamgarrett
the Schleprock of sex

Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 1387

quote:
Originally posted by theMAC
It's not cost effective.
Also it's less humane.



Less humane than death?

Also, the death penalty is not cost efective. People talk about how cheap it is, but they neglect the appeals costs, and the fact that most of them wait for 20ish years up until they are able to be executed.

Then people like to say we should expedite the rate at which we kill them. to save cost, but the Appeals process is vital. "Since 1973, over 130 people have been released from death rows throughout the country due to evidence of their wrongful convictions. In 2003 alone, 10 wrongfully convicted defendants were released from death row."

according to amnesty international

"http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-innocence"

Without appeals and the waiting time these people would have been executed. Personally I am of the opinion that if even one person is wrongfully executed that is a show of such great incompetence of our criminal justice system, so say that we should not allow executions to take place.

There have been a few instances in recent memory where men have been let out of prison after having spent 20+ years there for crimes they did not commit. How can anyone possibly justify letting the same system have the literal power over life and death?

I guess, I think it is better that 1,000 guilty men spend their lives in a nice cushy prison cell, than to have even one innocent person put to death.

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Old Post 01-23-2014 01:37 AM
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SimpleSimon
Dead Horse Rider

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 28673

Death row inmates typically spend virtually all of their time in single cell housing units. I won't address what other states standards are, but I am familiar with those in Texas. Which are a 5 x 9 foot cell, with a steel sheet bunk covered by a 3 inch cotton batting "mattress". That bunk is 30 inches wide and 6.5 feet long, leaving an available area which is 30 inches wide, by 6.5 feet long, with a small steel shelf desk between the head of the bunk and the interior end of the cell, with a welded in place backless steel stool. The other 2.5 feet at that interior end is occupied by a combination steel toilet/sink unit with cold water only.

Some inmates (depending on current privilege status) may have a radio or black and white 9 inch television (which they have to purchase themselves), and each cell may have an obstructed view of a larger color television, depending on where in the row they are located. Male inmates average 5' 8" in height and about 170 pounds weight.

The national kennel standards for dogs over 45 pounds weight require a minimum free space that is 4 x 10 feet. Most prison cells do not meet that standard, and in Texas (except in administrative segregation or solitary confinement and on death row) each such cell houses two inmates.

We typically house and treat dogs better than inmates. There is nothing "cushy" about prison, nor should there be. There are sound arguments and extensive data that support the idea that treating inmates as people is much more likely to result in less violence in the prison, and less violence subsequent to release by parolees.

Doing so will lessen recidivism rates, which means fewr jobs for LEO's and guards, and lesser career opportunities for "criminal justice professionals" at all levels. We can't have that.

Last edited by SimpleSimon on 01-23-2014 at 03:17 AM

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Old Post 01-23-2014 03:05 AM
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Coincidence
Counterfeit

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Sun
Posts: 32930

The argument for TDP seems to be that it's satisfying the bloodlust of the populace.

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Old Post 01-23-2014 11:12 AM
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SimpleSimon
Dead Horse Rider

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 28673

A segment thereof, yes. Mostly inflated and sustained therein by politicians using debased tactics in their lust for power, aided and abetted by bureaucratic types seeking petty aggrandizement for their careers, and a "news media" who will say or print anything that sells soap.

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Old Post 01-23-2014 01:17 PM
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rust
Headbugs 40

Registered: Feb 2010
Location:
Posts: 3461

quote:
Originally posted by Coincidence
The problem must surely be 'how do we most effectively stop rape from happening'? Not 'how can we satisfy our blood lust most satisfyingly'.

But I could be wrong.

Why not both? We're only human, it's just that some of us are alpha as fuck, or at least honest enough to admit we're nothing but mammals.

I hear the argument for a civilized people to have progressed or evolved enough to the point of not even acknowledging our basic desires, yet when I watch a television show that gives people a million dollars for answering random questions while a homeless man is propped up in the freezing rain against the studio's window...well, it gives me a boner to be honest.

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Old Post 01-23-2014 04:36 PM
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gundamgarrett
the Schleprock of sex

Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 1387

quote:
Originally posted by rust
Why not both? We're only human, it's just that some of us are alpha as fuck, or at least honest enough to admit we're nothing but mammals.

I hear the argument for a civilized people to have progressed or evolved enough to the point of not even acknowledging our basic desires, yet when I watch a television show that gives people a million dollars for answering random questions while a homeless man is propped up in the freezing rain against the studio's window...well, it gives me a boner to be honest.



Than you, for so eloquently laying out all that is wrong with humanity.

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Old Post 01-23-2014 05:07 PM
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Mister Freign
Population Surplus

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Happytown
Posts: 7860

as far as I know we're the animal that seeks to justify itself

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Old Post 01-23-2014 06:39 PM
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J E B Stuart
Administrator

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beyond Mason-Dixon Line
Posts: 29963

And, you're a heathen. Don't forget that, you heathen.

Amen.

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" Future years will never know the seething hell and the black infernal background of countless minor scenes and interiors, (not the official surface courteousness of the Generals, not the few great battles) of the Secession war; and it is best they should not�the real war will never get in the books." ~ Walt Whitman

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Old Post 01-23-2014 07:13 PM
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mattdk
, Architect Of Thought

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: The Midwest
Posts: 2276

Earlier I wanted to write that I am a far more evolved mammal than rust and then I get back from breakfast and realize that most of us are

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Old Post 01-23-2014 07:44 PM
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Coincidence
Counterfeit

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Sun
Posts: 32930

quote:
Originally posted by rust
Why not both? We're only human, it's just that some of us are alpha as fuck, or at least honest enough to admit we're nothing but mammals.

I hear the argument for a civilized people to have progressed or evolved enough to the point of not even acknowledging our basic desires, yet when I watch a television show that gives people a million dollars for answering random questions while a homeless man is propped up in the freezing rain against the studio's window...well, it gives me a boner to be honest.


Humans tend to be confused very easily, that's a major reason why we have laws.

A tip for you, since you are severely unevolved: Don't compare a punishment to a stupid tv show in order to justify the punishment.

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Old Post 01-24-2014 10:53 AM
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rust
Headbugs 40

Registered: Feb 2010
Location:
Posts: 3461

quote:
Originally posted by Coincidence
Humans tend to be confused very easily, that's a major reason why we have laws.

A tip for you, since you are severely unevolved: Don't compare a punishment to a stupid tv show in order to justify the punishment.



I wasn't, I was proving civility is anything but, so trying to justify an argument as absurd as 'Don't compare a punishment to a stupid tv show' is equally if not more stupid than whatever simple minded fool you're morally trying to school.

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Old Post 01-25-2014 02:26 PM
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Mister Freign
Population Surplus

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Happytown
Posts: 7860

I think the majority of people aren't accustomed to life & death struggle, and basically, that's the way I'd have it be. As far as I can tell, Coin is morally right (by me) and just blessedly ethically unchallenged on the ruthlessness point. That's how it should be. I don't want to argue in favor of ultimate punishments with Coin; Coin is right. Just, not in practice. It's better for Coin to believe the way he does than for me to argue that there's any value in my torture of a rapist/murderer. I'm not "right" to want that. No argument. That doesn't protect murderer/rapist from me - the cops do.

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Old Post 01-25-2014 03:20 PM
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gundamgarrett
the Schleprock of sex

Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 1387

quote:
Originally posted by Mister Freign
I think the majority of people aren't accustomed to life & death struggle, and basically, that's the way I'd have it be. As far as I can tell, Coin is morally right (by me) and just blessedly ethically unchallenged on the ruthlessness point. That's how it should be. I don't want to argue in favor of ultimate punishments with Coin; Coin is right. Just, not in practice. It's better for Coin to believe the way he does than for me to argue that there's any value in my torture of a rapist/murderer. I'm not "right" to want that. No argument. That doesn't protect murderer/rapist from me - the cops do.


$#@! @#!% #@!#% $#!@

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Old Post 01-25-2014 09:23 PM
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Coincidence
Counterfeit

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Sun
Posts: 32930

Although I'm right in practice as well. The death penalty is not a very good deterrent of crime. But it does better satisfy ruthlessness and bloodlust, of this mr. freign is absolutely correct.

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Old Post 01-25-2014 09:47 PM
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SimpleSimon
Dead Horse Rider

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 28673

Whether it deters anyone else from a like crime, once administered it guarantees the person executed will be deterred from further crimes.

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Old Post 01-25-2014 09:51 PM
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Coincidence
Counterfeit

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Sun
Posts: 32930

Better yet, kill them before the crime is committed. We just need industrial psychics.

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Old Post 01-25-2014 10:07 PM
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Sookee
good luck with that.

Registered: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 7179

I think there was a movie made about that. :/

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Old Post 01-25-2014 10:08 PM
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SimpleSimon
Dead Horse Rider

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 28673

A piss poor Tom Cruise flic, yes.

Want to end crime? Render humanity extinct.

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Old Post 01-25-2014 10:10 PM
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Sookee
good luck with that.

Registered: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 7179

I didn't say it was a good movie

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Old Post 01-25-2014 10:12 PM
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Coincidence
Counterfeit

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Sun
Posts: 32930

quote:
Originally posted by SimpleSimon
Want to end crime? Render humanity extinct.


That's the answer to a whole bunch of problems. But I bet some other species will evolve to invent laws, and then our efforts will have been in vain.

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Old Post 01-25-2014 10:14 PM
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theMAC
lone gunman for the govt

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1472

quote:
Originally posted by gundamgarrett
Less humane than death?

**blah blah blah**




yes.

All humans die but before they die all humans, who are free to chose, seek out other humans for some sort of interaction (however limited).

A life of restrictive isolation, forced imprisonment, and externally controlled segregation from personal liberty is unnatural and thus, less humane than death.

Monsters don't kill people outright; they make people suffer before killing them. The longer they suffer, the more terrifying the monster.

It is the most evil and unconscionable act to think an unnaturally imprisoned man is some how better off than the natural alternative.

To discover a wrongly executed man was innocent weighs on the survivors but has no quantifiable bearing on the executed. To discoverer a wrongly imprisoned man was held for most of his life weighs primarily on the imprisoned and thus, prolongs his suffering in a measurable manner which affect all other living beings.

How can you imagine that a man can be jailed for decades and then set free with a "We're sorry we doubted you"?
What do you think the purpose of your life is?

You are a radish. Your purpose is to live and die on this Earth using bio-matter until such a time as it is needed for something else. If you are a bad radish, that is how you will be remembered; a disappointing cosmic salad topping. The universe will smother you in ranch dressing and forget it ate you except for an impolite belch.

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Old Post 01-26-2014 12:22 AM
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magnolia
playground monitor

Registered: May 2008
Location:
Posts: 5536

stone walls do not a prison make,
nor iron bars a cage;
minds innocent and quiet take
that for an hermitage

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Old Post 01-26-2014 12:39 AM
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