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Harsh1
Scarred for Life

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: a little to the left of the right ventricle
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for most people debt creates the opportunity for a higher sanctioned level of debt, rather than wealth

and your statement about economics not being a man made construct is ridiculous, think about it for a moment. you even said it. for as long as there is someone to run or partake in AN economy there is an economy. without people driving it there is no economy. it is the definition of man made construct. requirement? certainly. Form? open to local manipulation

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Old Post 02-24-2016 08:26 AM
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Tuba

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: In a Gumboot
Posts: 1247

Firstly, you should learn to keep AN ECONOMY, separate from ECONOMICS.

There is a difference between man made and a natural result. Economics is just the study of a phenomenon involving trade, its neither left nor right, neither capitalist nor communist or anywhere between. Just as chemistry is the study of chemicals and chemical reactions. We may manipulate an economy, we may be required for an economy to exist, but its naturally occurring. An economy will always exist.

Do you eat? Even if you hunted and gathered or farmed, sooner or later you will trade, barter, etc. That is an economy. An economy is created by needs and wants. A cutting tool, an item of adornment, or the multitude of things one needs to survive without resorting to just primate activity and eating only whats very near, and sleeping under leaves. But even then, the best spot, the best food, is taken by the strongest. An economy based in strength, and the desire not to be hurt, that is the currency. You cant farm or gather and hunt it all. You need to trade or more accurately, engage in all of it. But even if you were to propose the idea of only using what you can create, fuck living with what I can farm when i can eat whatever the world can produce. And clearly, Im not in the minority in that, not by a long shot.

Work, is the farming, hunting and gathering. Money is the product of that labour. And its how we trade for all the goods we desire, or need. Money allows us to not concern ourselves with the value of every possible want or need, nor that of our own labour, we just compare price. The market, is a big equaliser.

Lets assume you farm. Do you currently have stock or crop seed? No, so you would need to ??? Give birth to them? Sooner or later you will need labour, or mechanical help, or a vet, or a multitude of the complexities that most never consider. And at this point, you need to trade. That, is an economy.

The economy, is a result of needs and wants. It will continue as such, and existed long before feudalism/capitalism/communism/corporatism.

Its no different from the drop out attitude money is evil. Nothing much changed except convenience. Money is easier to carry than whatever it is the people you will need to trade with, desire. A credit card is no different, except its more secure to carry and depending on the card, is again easier to carry than say $50k.

Economies exist to further your enjoyment. If you know how. Clearly, you dont. There has never been a better time, a more free, a more personal time to be alive. A market economy is a good thing. Your notion that people can refuse to participate, is foolish, and shortsighted. Its the blind leading the blind. No matter what you do, youre part of an economy. The current one, is the best that has ever existed. Flawed? Maybe. But it is the best on offer. Thanks for playing.

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Old Post 02-24-2016 09:15 AM
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Harsh1
Scarred for Life

Registered: Aug 2000
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what makes you think i don't know how?

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Old Post 02-24-2016 09:35 AM
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Tuba

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: In a Gumboot
Posts: 1247

res ipsa loquitor

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Old Post 02-24-2016 09:40 AM
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Harsh1
Scarred for Life

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strange conclusion to draw from the information i've offered so far

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Old Post 02-24-2016 09:43 AM
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Harsh1
Scarred for Life

Registered: Aug 2000
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i mean you'd surely need to know my assets rather than a list of the liabilities i don't have?

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Old Post 02-24-2016 09:50 AM
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SimpleSimon
Dead Horse Rider

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 28687

quote:
Originally posted by Tuba
Firstly, you should learn to keep AN ECONOMY, separate from ECONOMICS. ..

Economies exist to further your enjoyment. If you know how. Clearly, you dont. There has never been a better time, a more free, a more personal time to be alive. A market economy is a good thing. Your notion that people can refuse to participate, is foolish, and shortsighted. Its the blind leading the blind. No matter what you do, youre part of an economy. The current one, is the best that has ever existed. Flawed? Maybe. But it is the best on offer. Thanks for playing.

I agree.

My minimal participation in the economy is mostly a result of ill-health, and the physical limitations attendant thereto. Along with that goes my very low level of wants, which results in very little motivation to drive economically remunerative activity.

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Old Post 02-24-2016 10:15 AM
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Tuba

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: In a Gumboot
Posts: 1247

quote:
Originally posted by Harsh1
strange conclusion to draw from the information i've offered so far

quote:
Originally posted by Harsh1
i mean you'd surely need to know my assets rather than a list of the liabilities i don't have?

Not even if you think Im limited to this thread.

You said, in this thread, debt leads to higher debt for most. And that demonstrates well that you dont. You should know that is a result of poor choices, and not the fault of the economy, or an economy. I even said as much, they lack vision.

More billionaires have been created in the last 20 years than in all of history. They achieve it via... debt. Its certainly faster with debt because debt creates wealth.

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Old Post 02-24-2016 10:18 AM
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Coincidence
Counterfeit

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Sun
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quote:
Originally posted by Tuba
Youre complaining about a natural phenomenon not within the power of anyone to change.

Its fine, I dont expect you, or your fellow plebs to understand it.


Isn't it funny how fast you went for condemnation? There is no reason for that.
It's a fundamental mistake in communication that should have been removed during grade school.

But let me acknowledge, that yes I'm a parasite. I use limited natural resources and I pollute. We're a virus with shoes.

Economically, I must be one of the smaller parasites in the west though. It's not yet enough for me to feel bad when I see how wasteful our society is and what enormous sums are changing hands.

It is a middle class dream to participate in that game, and you give me no good reason to do so.
And I don't think you kow what revision means.

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Old Post 02-24-2016 01:49 PM
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Tuba

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: In a Gumboot
Posts: 1247

quote:
Originally posted by Coincidence
Isn't it funny how fast you went for condemnation? There is no reason for that.
It's a fundamental mistake in communication that should have been removed during grade school.

But let me acknowledge, that yes I'm a parasite. I use limited natural resources and I pollute. We're a virus with shoes.

Economically, I must be one of the smaller parasites in the west though. It's not yet enough for me to feel bad when I see how wasteful our society is and what enormous sums are changing hands.

It is a middle class dream to participate in that game, and you give me no good reason to do so.


Umm, a spade is a spade. Condemnation is all this thread deserves.

The dirt poor aspire to more and or better things too.

Feeling bad is a choice. I even stated why earlier, I think youre a blessing economically. The more of you there are, the less there is a need for a genuinely unemployed to exist to keep wages in check. Im happy for bludgers to sit on welfare of one kind or another.

But that has a flipside. You should know your current choices are part of a mechanism for keeping wages from rising. While you think youre a considerate person, enlightened, politically caring, youre actually a tool keeping the poor poorer as the gap widens. Moreover, you choose to be that tool. It has nothing to do with the money you TAKE. It has to do with your place in supply and demand for labour. Low unemployment means higher wages. A small part maybe, but a part nonetheless. Moreover, you encourage others to join. Im sure you can also live with that too.

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Old Post 02-24-2016 02:05 PM
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skalie
Locksmith of Lurve

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: World Citizen
Posts: 18911

Absolutely no idea where you got your other class [p]'s from, Tubbie, but you just got one from me for that post.

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Old Post 02-24-2016 08:11 PM
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rust
Headbugs 40

Registered: Feb 2010
Location:
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quote:
Originally posted by skalie
Ask google, 'did you mean tubgirl ?'


There's seems to be just a little coming out.

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Old Post 02-25-2016 08:23 AM
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Coincidence
Counterfeit

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Sun
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quote:
Originally posted by Tuba
Umm, a spade is a spade. Condemnation is all this thread deserves.

Nope, it's choice you make to make this conversation difficult and unpleasant.
You're dragging other shit into this and smearing your posts in it.
I would guess that you have some unrelated frustrations you're getting off your chest here, but it is a bitter over-reaction.
Like going from not having a car to wanting a world without cars. That's a conscious and symptomatic effort to distort this problem.

And you try to arrogantly signal that you know exactly how things are.
You should make an effort to change my behavior, not confirm it by being a lousy example of a human.
quote:
Originally posted by Tuba
Feeling bad is a choice.

Indeed! So why are you so bitter and angry?
You could start by not immediately seeing things in a economic light, as if economy currently is rational. Your trading analogies belong in an older and more naive world.

When I was a language teacher we were vastly overpaid. My banker told me it was a salary worthy of a king. For teaching danish.
Meanwhile the school had to lay off 10 people because they couldn't afford them.
You bet they should get lower wages.
Poverty does not depend on my choices. My life quality does. I would like this discussion to be about something tangible like that.

quote:
Originally posted by Tuba
Moreover, you encourage others to join. Im sure you can also live with that too.

How very constructionist of you. I think this is a central point. I should put aside my own well-being to save our society.

PAIN OR DRUDGEY

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Old Post 02-25-2016 11:20 AM
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Harsh1
Scarred for Life

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: a little to the left of the right ventricle
Posts: 515

just got back from my local housing estate where i regaled people about their poor choices.

it didnt go down well and i got stabbed a bit

furthermore, what i said didnt even contradict your point, unless you think the world is full of visionaries? some people do very well from this system but i stand by what i said that most people do not turn debt to relative wealth, certainly not relative to the kind of societies that most posting on this board inhabit

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Old Post 02-25-2016 12:18 PM
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Tuba

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: In a Gumboot
Posts: 1247

quote:
Originally posted by Coincidence
Nope, it's choice you make to make this conversation difficult and unpleasant.
You're dragging other shit into this and smearing your posts in it.
I would guess that you have some unrelated frustrations you're getting off your chest here, but it is a bitter over-reaction.
Like going from not having a car to wanting a world without cars. That's a conscious and symptomatic effort to distort this problem.

And you try to arrogantly signal that you know exactly how things are.
You should make an effort to change my behavior, not confirm it by being a lousy example of a human.

Indeed! So why are you so bitter and angry?
You could start by not immediately seeing things in a economic light, as if economy currently is rational. Your trading analogies belong in an older and more naive world.

When I was a language teacher we were vastly overpaid. My banker told me it was a salary worthy of a king. For teaching danish.
Meanwhile the school had to lay off 10 people because they couldn't afford them.
You bet they should get lower wages.
Poverty does not depend on my choices. My life quality does. I would like this discussion to be about something tangible like that.


How very constructionist of you. I think this is a central point. I should put aside my own well-being to save our society.

PAIN OR DRUDGEY


There is no overreaction. You made statements in your posts and title, that for a person in your position is biting the hand that feeds you. You deserve nothing but condemnation. Youre that guest thathas overstayed his welcome, and you still criticise your hosts.

But nice, 'my banker'. Cool story.

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Old Post 02-25-2016 03:13 PM
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Tuba

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: In a Gumboot
Posts: 1247

quote:
Originally posted by Harsh1
just got back from my local housing estate where i regaled people about their poor choices.

it didnt go down well and i got stabbed a bit

furthermore, what i said didnt even contradict your point, unless you think the world is full of visionaries? some people do very well from this system but i stand by what i said that most people do not turn debt to relative wealth, certainly not relative to the kind of societies that most posting on this board inhabit


The point was, all CAN do well. Not that they do. Its genuinely true that youre held back by yourself.

Debt, creates wealth. Simply saving wastes opportunity. The problem is debt is money, and people tend to spend money on depreciating assets, homes they want to live in, or simply services for pleasure. Its a choice fuckknuckles. NO VISION.

People are impatient and demanding.

Oh, and youre suggesting you didnt contradict anything I said, but you did respond to me, and got that wrong. Thats where it starts.

Let me help you.
Me - Debt creates wealth
You - for most it doesnt
Now you need to consider who takes who out of context here. Some people die at birth, that does not mean 'life' is that short, just theirs.
Me - Its a choice

DEBT CREATES WEALTH is true.

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Old Post 02-25-2016 03:33 PM
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Harsh1
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Registered: Aug 2000
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Posts: 515

I thought vision created wealth?

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Old Post 02-25-2016 04:10 PM
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Coincidence
Counterfeit

Registered: Apr 2004
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Burning your money makes other money more valuable. So if you borrow and steal all the money you can and burn them, you will do the economy a favour.

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Old Post 02-27-2016 10:07 AM
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SimpleSimon
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quote:
Originally posted by Coincidence
Burning your money makes other money more valuable. So if you borrow and steal all the money you can and burn them, you will do the economy a favour.
No, it does not. If money had intrinsic value that might be true, but virtually all money is waste paper or electronic media of one type or anpther, with effectively zero real value.

Waste/destroy all the money you can - more will simply be created.

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Old Post 02-28-2016 01:29 AM
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Coincidence
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Yeah, it's a mathematical hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_burning

"According to the quantity theory of money, because it reduces the supply of money it increases by the same amount the collective wealth of everyone else who holds money."

You get the concept.

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Old Post 02-28-2016 12:14 PM
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SimpleSimon
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Theories can be entertaining, but all too often they contain at most a tangential relationship to reality. Since money is not, in fact, not an actual measure of value, and is a product of computer systems and printing presses, there is no shortage nor can one exist except as a deliberate act of policy.

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Old Post 02-28-2016 02:18 PM
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Tuba

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: In a Gumboot
Posts: 1247

If ever there was an example of pissing in the wind, that was it.

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Old Post 02-28-2016 05:27 PM
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lmposter
Kraft durch Freude

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Just as you made the distinction between the differences of economy and economics; Debt , I must argue, does not create wealth without the vision, knowledge, and/or manipulation to ply that wealth into a usable profit. You must have a foil for lift, yes, but a good headwind helps. Plus the goal is to burn other peoples money to make yours more valuable.

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Old Post 02-29-2016 05:23 AM
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Tuba

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: In a Gumboot
Posts: 1247

quote:
Originally posted by lmposter
Just as you made the distinction between the differences of economy and economics; Debt , I must argue, does not create wealth without the vision, knowledge, and/or manipulation to ply that wealth into a usable profit. ...Plus the goal is to burn other peoples money to make yours more valuable.

So youre saying there is no difference between chemicals and chemistry?

As for the other, I said that already.

Money is an IOU. Burning it only removes your claim to the government debt. It has no effect when destroyed, except the reprinting costs money. If its known it was destroyed, its simply replaced. If not known, it can not impart any of the theoretical increase. If you play cards, and you win receiving an IOU, and then burn that IOU, does the value of money increase? No, you just lose the right to claim on the IOU. Money is just a government issued and backed tradeable IOU.

Its what I expect an emo to some up with though, like cutting yourself has the ability to solve an issue.

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Old Post 02-29-2016 06:47 AM
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Coincidence
Counterfeit

Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:
Originally posted by SimpleSimon
Theories can be entertaining, but all too often they contain at most a tangential relationship to reality. Since money is not, in fact, not an actual measure of value, and is a product of computer systems and printing presses, there is no shortage nor can one exist except as a deliberate act of policy.

Surely you don't imply that economics and reality is 1:1?
Burning money to raise value is a metaphor of how economy can makes sense in theory. I didn't think it would be taken literally.

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