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Trenchant_Troll
ad hominid

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 44684

quote:
Originally posted by Muffy
Quit lumping me in with every Democrat you've ever argued with. I'm not a Democrat. I'm not even American, so stating "my beloved Obama" really misses the mark. You obviously also missed where I referred to HRC as a cunt. I 100% agree the Dems ran the wrong candidate. Now, just imagine for a minute that I can hold those views and still think Trump is a cockwomble. Ironically, I've yet to meet a Trump supporter that can tell me what makes him a decent human being without referring to sins of other Presidents, like Trump's not a cockwomble because these others were also cockwombles? Congratulations for not bringing up Benghazi, otherwise your argument would encompass what every boring Trump supporter has said, ever.


Now, let's just assume that I hate all politicians (which isn't too far from the truth) and hate Trump just a little more (pick a reason, any reason, he's a lying, pussy grabbing, arrogant blowhard - finding reasons to dislike him is NOT the issue). He's the king of the cockwombles, one might say. Why is that a bad thing given, as you note, America has had shitty Presidents for years? Because it shows you've all lost control and are now tolerant of having pond scum represent your views. You're all fucked. Now figure out why and fix it so I can move over there and eat my toaster strudle in peace.



My apologies. I just assumed that you were one of the Obama worshipers here and I should not have done that. It's just that there were a lot of sheep here back in the day. I should have known better than to count you among them.

As for us being fucked, you are so right about that. Sadly, all Western nations are fucked at this point I think.

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Old Post 06-06-2019 07:44 PM
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GoFuckYourselves!
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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Dumbfucksville!
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quote:
Originally posted by J E B Stuart
By all means, please do so, Herk.

As for me, I voted for Trump in 2016 and I’ll be voting Trump in 2020, provided the Good Lord’s a-willin’ and the crik don’t rise. Does this mean I’ll be persona non grata at our annual family Thanksgiving dinner at Golden Corral?

Amen.


Of course not! You're my favorite uncle and always will be. Who you vote for is your business and I have no problem with it whatsoever. I just see that man a lot differently from you. Character means a lot to me, which you have in abundance.

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Old Post 06-06-2019 07:45 PM
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Trenchant_Troll
ad hominid

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
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quote:
Originally posted by tessellated
We could start with the birther nonsense.


Really? That made him deserving of the vitriol being heaped on him from the Left? Is that really all you have? As far as I can see, Trump's primary sin is his fucking Tweeting all the time. He deserves some shit for that, but not the level of shit he's getting from Democrats and their media. I want someone to name one thing that the man has done to deserve the ruthless obsession that borders on mania the Left is engaged in. Just one thing.

Look, Trump was NOT my first choice, but I think the guy has done more for America than Obama did or anyone in Congress has done for years. The bottom line is the choice that was offered to voters in 2016 was not voting, throwing your vote away on a fringe or write-in candidate, vote for HRC (arguably the most criminal politician of our time), or vote for Trump, a Washington outsider and TV clown. I chose the TV clown and have yet to regret it when I consider the alternative.

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Old Post 06-06-2019 08:08 PM
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Muffy
Crika bait

Registered: Oct 2007
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Another thing I find interesting when studying you Americans is the phenomena JEB eludes to where you can't be friends with someone who holds different political views than your own. Your basic political argument in NZ consists of two people expressing different opinions, calling each other mental, then having a beer and laughing at how silly Australians are. If you disagree over things like Rugby, however, things get ugly fast.

I think part of the problem is that so many of the current politicians are polarising to the extent that it gets in the way of the issues. Rather than debating the things that matter, like the best way to achieve adequate health care for all, it gets bogged down in the conduct of the players on the political stage.

Most Americans I have met are nice people who all want the same thing - a great country. The real arguments are about what makes a country great and how best to get there. But people have given up on trying to find the common ground and the default position is now to go on the defensive as soon as someone disagrees with your party or presidential preference.

I think it would be a good idea to go back to the basics and work forward from there. Just a thought.

For the record, I'd happily have any of you to dinner and talk about this stuff. I might not get your POV, but I would listen mostly with curiosity and an interest in what makes you tick. Sometimes these discussions make me feel like I'm looking at a train wreck with morbid fascination, but I find that entertaining in itself as it pushes me to evaluate my own opinions to try and determine why they're so different from yours.

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Old Post 06-06-2019 08:26 PM
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tessellated
naughty bits

Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Trenchant_Troll
Really? That made him deserving of the vitriol being heaped on him from the Left? Is that really all you have?


You asked for one single example of a pernicious lie. I gave it to you. Then you asked for an example of racist behavior. Conveniently, I could simply repeat myself. Now that you have it, you wish to move the goal posts?

Trump deserves all the shit he gets because he is a pathological liar. The one thing we do not suffer from is a surplus of examples. It is strange to me that someone who would never tolerate a profligate liar in their personal or professional life would -- somehow -- find it acceptable for the president (and here I assume this describes you, as well.) This is all the more surreal given the years of complaints I've heard about Democratic presidential lying (real or imagined.)

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Old Post 06-06-2019 08:34 PM
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Large Filipino
Fuck me hard in my arse.

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: in colorado somewhere!
Posts: 53157

Let's say Bernie ran as a Republican.
MILLIONS WILL SWITH TO REPUBLICAN AND BERNIE BEATS TRUMP IN THE PRIMARIES.
Then Bernie will compete against the establishment pick Democrat.
You see Boys and Girls.
Republicans don't have Super Delegates.
And that's how Bernie Beat Trump.
And of course Bernie beats the Democrat super delegate pick.
But maybe not.
Maybe now suddenly Democrats LIKE the Electoral College.
Because they chose the Establishment Democrat.
But let's say Bernie wins.
And now suddenly Bernie's Values are Republican Values.
Because this is how sheep think.

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Old Post 06-06-2019 08:52 PM
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J E B Stuart
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Registered: Jul 2000
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Hey, grasshoppa. Good to see ya!

Does this mean you now know where you are politically? 😳🙏🏻

Amen.

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Old Post 06-06-2019 08:58 PM
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Large Filipino
Fuck me hard in my arse.

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: in colorado somewhere!
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NO! Hahahaha

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Old Post 06-06-2019 09:03 PM
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GoFuckYourselves!
#1 Asylum Dumbfuck!

Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by Large Filipino
NO! Hahahaha

You stand way to the left of AOC, don't you? That's okay. Be proud and stand tall! If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

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Old Post 06-07-2019 02:53 AM
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fubar
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This thread is now about Chi Chi Rodriguez.

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Old Post 06-07-2019 03:24 AM
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J E B Stuart
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quote:
Originally posted by GoFuckYourselves!
Of course not! You're my favorite uncle and always will be. Who you vote for is your business and I have no problem with it whatsoever. I just see that man a lot differently from you. Character means a lot to me, which you have in abundance.

Thanks, Herk. I’ve never known you to have irrational and/or malicious thoughts (except when it comes to cheeeeese). For that and other reasons, your opinions are ones I highly value and respect. I’ve sensed for some time that you have more intimate, close-up familiarity with Trump than I have, or will ever have. If you’re not in a position to share, I respect that. But, that’s why I asked.

I meant what I said about President Trump, but I know better than to wear blinders, whether it be him or any other leader.

Amen.

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Old Post 06-07-2019 04:05 PM
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GoFuckYourselves!
#1 Asylum Dumbfuck!

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Thank you.

And please be wary of any man who says and believes he knows more than all the experts. That man is a fool.

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Old Post 06-07-2019 04:36 PM
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J E B Stuart
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I see a man that trusts his instincts. As for the “experts”, the devil’s in the details.

Amen.

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Old Post 06-07-2019 04:49 PM
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Trenchant_Troll
ad hominid

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 44684

quote:
Originally posted by tessellated
You asked for one single example of a pernicious lie. I gave it to you. Then you asked for an example of racist behavior. Conveniently, I could simply repeat myself. Now that you have it, you wish to move the goal posts?

Trump deserves all the shit he gets because he is a pathological liar. The one thing we do not suffer from is a surplus of examples. It is strange to me that someone who would never tolerate a profligate liar in their personal or professional life would -- somehow -- find it acceptable for the president (and here I assume this describes you, as well.) This is all the more surreal given the years of complaints I've heard about Democratic presidential lying (real or imagined.)



You and I have a very different definition of pernicious. Funny you never complained when Obama told his many lies, which WERE pernicious. But it doesn't matter because you have TDS like most on the Left do. Trump is hated for doing things Obama did with impunity. I'm not going to argue about anything with a Lefty because it is a waste of my precious time. And as I have said before, this is hardly the forum I would choose to carry on a serious debate about anything political.

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Old Post 06-07-2019 05:01 PM
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Muffy
Crika bait

Registered: Oct 2007
Location:
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Wait, so lying about his Russian meetings isn't pernicious? What do you call it then? Treason?
Any criticism of Trump by the left is seen as TDS by the right. While the left may have overlooked Obama's flaws, the right certainly overlooks Trump's flaws. You can't claim the high ground here TT. Also, arguing over semantics is a sure sign of a flimsy argument (outside the legal arena, where the correct interpretation actually has meaning and purpose, and where I'm fairly certain "pernicious" would apply to many of Trump's llies). Who the hell uses the term "pernicious" anyway? Outiside of this thread, the only other time I've heard it used recently is when my Drs discuss my pernicious anaemia. Great, now I'm imagining my blood cells running around with bad yellow hair, crying how they're the most tremendous blood cells, the best blood cells ever, and they're going to be greater than any blood cells have been before, covfefe.

If you don't want to carry on a serious debate about anything political, why do you keep engaging and getting butthurt over the views that don't match yours? The tone of your arguments is a little nasty, FYI.

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Old Post 06-07-2019 07:19 PM
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tessellated
naughty bits

Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Trenchant_Troll
You and I have a very different definition of pernicious. Funny you never complained when Obama told his many lies, which WERE pernicious. But it doesn't matter because you have TDS like most on the Left do. Trump is hated for doing things Obama did with impunity. I'm not going to argue about anything with a Lefty because it is a waste of my precious time. And as I have said before, this is hardly the forum I would choose to carry on a serious debate about anything political.


I don't think we have a different definition, just in how we think about applying it to lies told especially given the source. Misleading many folks into believing an elected president isn't a US citizen, and therefore illegitimate is clearly harmful. As best as I can tell, the only people who benefit are those telling the lie or selling something based upon it.

I find your comments regarding me useless and distracting. I'd ask that you extend the same courtesy to me as I do for you.

I think most, if not all, lies are harmful. I don't think that's acceptable from any politician. The issue I have with Trump is that his volume of lies sets a new standard which further degrades the expectations of the electorate. My fear is that the next president (regardless of party) will follow suit. How does this benefit anyone?

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Old Post 06-07-2019 07:23 PM
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Trenchant_Troll
ad hominid

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
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"You can keep your insurance and your doctor." wasn't exactly harmless as I recall. All politicians lie harmful lies. It's what they do.

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Old Post 06-10-2019 05:30 AM
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tessellated
naughty bits

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Location: Pere Ubu land
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It's never a good sign when you have to use the other-guy-did-it-too defense.

Regardless, that's missing the point. We all know politicians tell lies, and lies are bad. I'm glad you are acknowledging that Trump does this too, even if it's implicit in your response. The point is that Trump is lying at a pace that sets a new, low standard. Even after several years I still find the nonchalance of the right in simply accepting and defending his behavior incredibly jarring. The only explanation I have is tribalism and naked self-interest.

At this point, I'm not even sure how to prevent further erosion of our politics, let alone repair it. Fix gerrymandering? Raise the standard of civics education?

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Old Post 06-10-2019 04:33 PM
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fubar
mud falcon

Registered: Apr 2005
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I'm telling you, the French got it right back in the day.

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Muffy
Crika bait

Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:
Originally posted by tessellated
It's never a good sign when you have to use the other-guy-did-it-too defense.

Amen. I wonder if it's this kind of thinking that is keeping America stuck in its current funk. Politics has become a game of who can take dirty, underhanded shit and smear it just a little further than the last guy. There's boundary pushing, and then there's just taking a crap on responsible government.


quote:
Originally posted by tessellated
At this point, I'm not even sure how to prevent further erosion of our politics, let alone repair it. Fix gerrymandering? Raise the standard of civics education?
Both two very good places to start, IMO. Plus put a cap on how much lobby groups and billionaires can donate, and how much can be spent on campaigning in general - just to level the playing field. Maybe a quick civics 101 exam and if they can't pass, they can't run...

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Old Post 06-11-2019 03:34 AM
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tessellated
naughty bits

Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Pere Ubu land
Posts: 1532

quote:
Originally posted by Muffy
Amen. I wonder if it's this kind of thinking that is keeping America stuck in its current funk. Politics has become a game of who can take dirty, underhanded shit and smear it just a little further than the last guy. There's boundary pushing, and then there's just taking a crap on responsible government.



This is single, most common defense I have seen raised of Trump's lying. It's utterly ridiculous especially given the decades of complaints we've heard about the Clintons in particular. Most conservatives, TT excluded, don't go after Obama as hard with the exception of the 'you can keep your doctor' line. I do see a contingent of conservatives in the public square willing to speak out against Trump, but they tend to be pundits who didn't support Trump during the election. It's not an easy thing to criticize your guy; I certainly get that. It must feel tantamount to admitting you made a mistake, I suppose, even though that's not true.

To answer your almost question: I do think this is caused by party tribalism and means-justify-ends thinking. This is just basic human nature that we are all prey to. I don't think we can point to this as the reason for the current state of political discourse since it is always present. I think this is where people's lack of media savvy becomes a real vulnerability. The Internet (who capitalizes that anymore) has made this harder still. I wonder if a similar problem arose with the advent of the printing press? Critical thinking is key as well as the willingness to actively engage with opposing viewpoints. I wish more people would take a course on logical arguments and apply it. It's amazing how many fallacies are routinely committed here and elsewhere.

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Old Post 06-11-2019 05:23 PM
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fubar
mud falcon

Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by tessellated
The Internet (who capitalizes that anymore) has made this harder still. I wonder if a similar problem arose with the advent of the printing press? Critical thinking is key as well as the willingness to actively engage with opposing viewpoints. I wish more people would take a course on logical arguments and apply it. It's amazing how many fallacies are routinely committed here and elsewhere.


Originally, topics were debated at the local coffee\tea\tea\beer haus. These days, political discourse is relegated to the sharing of memes.

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Muffy
Crika bait

Registered: Oct 2007
Location:
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quote:
Originally posted by tessellated
Critical thinking is key as well as the willingness to actively engage with opposing viewpoints. I wish more people would take a course on logical arguments and apply it. It's amazing how many fallacies are routinely committed here and elsewhere.

I had noticed this too

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Old Post 06-12-2019 05:55 AM
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Muffy
Crika bait

Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:
Originally posted by fubar
Originally, topics were debated at the local coffee\tea\tea\beer haus. These days, political discourse is relegated to the sharing of memes.

Yes! This annoys the piss out of me as it kind of reinforces the whole "if I have a pithy meme for my views then why bother spending any more time thinking about them or discussing the issue" type thinking. It's contributing to the dumbing down of society.

There was an interesting news item recently about research in to how the internet and smartphones etc has changed our way of thinking. It found that people are losing their ability to reason and retain facts because their brains are wired to just google things and move on. It's a worry.

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Trenchant_Troll
ad hominid

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 44684

At this point I'm pretty convinced that humans are hardwired to be subjects of authoritarian rule. I think that's why given the opportunity to have a say in the voting booth the majority stay home on election day. So, at the very least, we are ruled by an oligarchy of special interests and no one seems to care enough to change. In the end it's the strong leader (perceived or real) who wins. I see us well on the way to seeing democracies fall to dictatorships, which is precisely what the global cabal that runs the new world order wants to see happen.

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