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Feral Automaton
control your staffs

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
Posts: 3053
Civilization is twenty-four hours and two meals from barbarism.

Quothe that new Dirk Gently character...

Which got me thinking (since this fucking forum is so dead I'm reading sigs for content, maybe I should read a book?) ---> Who here feels like america (the generalized one that we all love to talk about) is civilized (if you feel that it is, please explain and define what is 'civilized')? Are americans civilized?

Or are we just barbarians with a lot of fancy toys?

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Old Post 11-26-2001 04:46 AM
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stormydoctor
Gay homo sewing fag

Registered: Aug 2000
Location:
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Well let me ask my dinosaur.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 04:51 AM
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Mordecai
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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 23169

I am a barbarian, I eat raw meat and wear furs, I got out looking for dates with a large stick over my shoulder.

-m

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Old Post 11-26-2001 04:59 AM
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stormydoctor
Gay homo sewing fag

Registered: Aug 2000
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I eat raw insects and great birds, called pigeons.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:02 AM
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lady sianna
starry-eyed siren

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: deep in the heart of...
Posts: 520

it seems to me that some of the more "barbarous" cultures are considerably more civilized than America. i guess it depends on how one defines "civilized".

you wanted a serious answer, right?

otherwise, i'm definitely a barbarian. *grrrrowls & waits for man with big stick to come & drag me off*

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~ Alan Watts

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:12 AM
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Mordecai
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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 23169

*knocks sianna over the head and takes her to his cave*

-m

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:15 AM
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Paint CHiPs
Smartest Man in the World

Registered: Jul 2000
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Wouldn't "civilized" be entirely relative?

You'd have to define the term before I'm willing to set out on the discussion.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:22 AM
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lady sianna
starry-eyed siren

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: deep in the heart of...
Posts: 520

*squeals & feigns protest in the form of biting & scratching*

and back to the topic at hand:

civilize (according to the Oxford American Dictionary) - 1. to cause to improve from a savage or primitive stage of human society to a more developed one. 2. to improve the behaviour of.

how conviently vague.

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But I'll tell you what hermits realize: If you go off into a far, far forest and get very quiet, you'll come to understand that you are connected with everything.
~ Alan Watts

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:24 AM
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Fiend
Medically crazy

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Bangor, ME
Posts: 10608

I think Henry Locke had a good thing going for civialized society.

We just expounded on it.

I have to give props to the Greeks, thank you.

No matter or foreign intersts, or our actions. The definitions are sound.

Democracy is the way to go. Argue otherwise, but history will tell who is correct.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:25 AM
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MuffyTheVampyreLayer
Just another wanker

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: NZ
Posts: 877

I think we are more civilized than barbaric, but not civilized enough. Thats in general - not just America.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:33 AM
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: behind the irony curtain
Posts: 19147

Some are some are not...I donít hold my pinkie up when I drink tea but I donít go around killing people for pelts either...unlike RIZZ.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:34 AM
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MuffyTheVampyreLayer
Just another wanker

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: NZ
Posts: 877

quote:
Originally posted by AlcoholSoopaFiend

Democracy is the way to go. Argue otherwise, but history will tell who is correct.


It depends what version of democracy you are talking about now dosn't it. I would hate to see you use Rome as historic evidence of deomocracy being the correct way to go

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:35 AM
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Mordecai
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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 23169

Both Muff and Euph made good posts there, articulating my own thoughts better than I could.

-m

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:38 AM
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Fiend
Medically crazy

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Bangor, ME
Posts: 10608

Rome wasn't a true democracy.

but the idea came from the intellectuals of that time.

I was talking about the US version, and how the countries since then have used it as a blueprint.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:43 AM
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Mordecai
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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 23169

America isn't a true democracy either, it's a democratic republic. I.e. deomcratically elected leaders supposedly doing the bidding of the people. It's an alright system, but I think it's breaking down.

-m

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:50 AM
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MuffyTheVampyreLayer
Just another wanker

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: NZ
Posts: 877

Why is it that Americans think that Americans invented the only 'real' democracy?

And Mordecai is right.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:54 AM
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Feral Automaton
control your staffs

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
Posts: 3053
wow - whole lot of nothin'

"Wouldn't "civilized" be entirely relative?

You'd have to define the term before I'm willing to set out on the discussion." - Paint CHiPs.

"Who here feels like america (the generalized one that we all love to talk about) is civilized (if you feel that it is, please explain and define what is 'civilized')? Are americans civilized?" - Me.

Wanna try that one again?

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:57 AM
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: behind the irony curtain
Posts: 19147
Re: wow - whole lot of nothin'

quote:
Originally posted by Feral Automaton
"snip


Iíve traveled this great nation of ours too much to be able to "generalize" it.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 05:59 AM
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Spooky
twisty turny thing

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
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Re: Civilization is twenty-four hours and two meals from barbarism.

quote:
Originally posted by Feral Automaton
snip


ahhh that old Wilde quote springs to mind.

'America is the only nation to go from barbarism to decadence without civilisation in between.'

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Old Post 11-26-2001 06:01 AM
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: behind the irony curtain
Posts: 19147

quote:
Originally posted by MuffyTheVampyreLayer
Why is it that Americans think that Americans invented the only 'real' democracy?

And Mordecai is right.



Why is it that some Americans ....?


Why is it that some seemingly well educated people are eager to "generalize" an entire country's people?

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Old Post 11-26-2001 06:02 AM
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MuffyTheVampyreLayer
Just another wanker

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: NZ
Posts: 877
Re: wow - whole lot of nothin'

quote:
Originally posted by Feral Automaton
"Wouldn't "civilized" be entirely relative?



I was thinking that myself...but decided that I knew what he was talking about and was just being pedantic.

But - just a point of interest. For a country to be annexed it needs to be terra nulius - ' no mans land'. This was deemed to mean no CIVILZED people owned the land. The south island of new zealand was claimed via this. So...were the (maori) inhabitants uncivilized? If so, by whose standards?

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Old Post 11-26-2001 06:06 AM
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Fiend
Medically crazy

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Bangor, ME
Posts: 10608

quote:
Originally posted by MuffyTheVampyreLayer
Why is it that Americans think that Americans invented the only 'real' democracy?
.



Did you read my post?

fucking A, run with it if you can.

i merely pointed out that other countries look to us from a constitution stand point. legally its something to quote

and i said who and where it derived from. putting words in my mouth doesn't prove your point. it merely makes you seem arguementative and bias.

it's sad that we have to split hairs about civilization

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Old Post 11-26-2001 06:07 AM
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MuffyTheVampyreLayer
Just another wanker

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: NZ
Posts: 877

quote:
Originally posted by euphorbia


Why is it that some Americans ....?


Why is it that some seemingly well educated people are eager to "generalize" an entire country's people?



Tee hee. Point taken, Oops!

all though I would say majority rather than some.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 06:09 AM
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MuffyTheVampyreLayer
Just another wanker

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: NZ
Posts: 877

quote:
Originally posted by AlcoholSoopaFiend

i merely pointed out that other countries look to us from a constitution stand point. legally its something to quote


well, actually, no. I have studied constitutional and administrative law and we only looked at America for all of.... oh...actually, we didn't. America only got brought up in passing. It is only when you read writings by American jurisprudes that you encounter the phenomenon of the American constitution been taken as a starting point.

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Old Post 11-26-2001 06:12 AM
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Mordecai
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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 23169

I don't recall fiend specifying your nation, and while some may exxagerate, The american system is and has been used by some.

-m

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