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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
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Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells

I was surprised to a see a thread in THT with this title. I realise that these kind of events are pretty horrible but I found it intersting that an incident in a small Cambridgeshire village could have such a far reaching effect, the internet is obviously repsonsible for that I guess.

Anyways, for anyone interested, the two people that were arrested on Sunday under suspision of murder are still being questioned. The forensic evidence from the two bodies found has proved thus far to be inconclusive in identifying them as the girls. Which makes you wonder what someone could have done to them because a body would not be that fucked up after two weeks in the ground to make a visiual ID I would have thought.

Anyway, the police just extended the time (through the courts) they have to question the two people to Wednesday 6am. At that time they must either charge them or let them go.

I am wodnering if they are holding out for conclusive forensics in order to charge them perosnally. I get the feeling that thye are lacking the all important evidence that will secure a conviction. If they don't get it by tomorrow morning then the case could run into serious problems.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2203835.stm

Attachment: girls.jpg
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Old Post 08-20-2002 10:52 AM
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FuhQall
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Am I just not up to date with what is happening because the people who are in custody are under investigation for the murder of the two girls, yet the bodies have not yet been ID'd. Are they being charged with an unrelated murder? If so, why are they being tagged to the two girls? Does "innocent until proven guilty" not feature in this at all?

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:02 AM
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philjit
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no Fuhquall. They have been arrested on 'suspision of murder' not for 'murder'.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:04 AM
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philjit
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Anyways, heres an intersting piece on the thwe way the media has handled this whole situation.

quote:

The police, and the family of Jessica Chapman, politely asked on Sunday that the media should get out of Soham. The broadcast media obliged, with television bulletins yesterday reporting from elsewhere in Cambridgeshire; near Soham, but not in the town itself.

The press was not quite so self-consciously well-behaved, with many newspapers, including this one, publishing photographs of Soham residents including Agnes Wells, the grandmother of Holly, grieving earlier in the day. Mrs Wells was the closest relative of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman to stray into the path of the media at the weekend, and her appearance was certainly taken full advantage of.

Reporters and columnists tell their readers that they can "only imagine" the anguish of the relatives and friends of these two murdered girls. But the photographers working on the same "stories", and the editors commissioning them, beg to differ. They are only too keen to make the imagination redundant by offering pictures of grief for readers to gawp at – faces awash with tears, contorted by pain – the more suffering, needless to say, the better.

We do not have to "only imagine" this distress at all. Why are we offered images of the suffering of people close to an appalling atrocity? To help with the imaginative exercise of thinking ourselves into the violated minds of Holly and Jessica's parents, as we have been so repeatedly urged to do? What are these photographs of devastated people in Soham meant to tell us? What pain looks like?

Mrs Wells will be too devastated by mourning to be much worried about the way she was plastered over the front page of yesterday's Daily Mail. But parts of the media ought to be a little worried about where such coverage stops being useful and starts being horribly, pointlessly, intrusive. The media prides itself on being in touch with the feelings of the person on the street. And the person on the street has never been more wary of the media.

Here is Alison Palmer, Soham correspondent of the local paper, the Standard, writing last Thursday about the feelings of the townspeople towards the press and television crews that had descended on the town. "Initially we all felt afraid of the media, angry even that they were training their gaze on the Wells and the Chapman families at a time when they must have wanted to be alone in their heartache. But it wasn't long before we realised how much we need them to get the message across to the world that two special little people are missing."

My own feeling is that the media has been damagingly intrusive right from the start of this case, so intrusive that the police inquiry itself, like the Sarah Payne investigation before it, has been largely shaped by its influence and its demands.

Certainly it is right that there should be a symbiotic relationship between the media and the police in the deliverance of justice. But it is hard to escape the feeling that police forces are now ordering their assessment of cases such as this one with an eye to how they will play to the press. The reasons for this are clear: they wish to get maximum publicity and feedback from the public. But can such strategies be right when they clearly involve police spearheading massive public denial?

The police in this case, like the Sarah Payne case, along with the whole of the media, insisted that the possibility of the girls having been killed should remain unspoken, up until the point that they arrested murder suspects. But privately, they could not have believed their own version of events, in which the girls were held captive somewhere but safe, with their abductor caring for them in some twisted way, and monitoring their mobile phone messages.

Sue Carroll writes in the Daily Mirror about how a policeman during the Sarah Payne case told her in confidence that "when they find her, it's going to be, for the family, like falling off a 30-storey building and hitting concrete". What he was clearly saying was that while police and journalists were realistic enough to understand that Sarah Payne had almost certainly been murdered, there was somehow an advantage in not acknowledging this reality either publicly or to the parents of the child.

What is the advantage though? It is well known that the wide coverage gained for the police hours of irrelevant phone calls and pieces of useless information to sift through. Could this time and energy, in both cases, not have been better spent in a wider search of the roadsides around Soham?

The place where the bodies of Holly and Jessica were found is notorious as an area where dead children had been secreted before. Instead, as in the Sarah Payne case, the police have staged an enormous hunt for living girls, via the media and the telephone line. It has fallen to members of the public, independently, to discover the barely hidden bodies that ushered reality into the investigation. Now we're told that the bodies of these two girls are in such a state that formal identification will take days. This information subtly invites us to "imagine" again, this time to imagine what might have been done to the children by their killer to leave them in such a mess.

Such ghastly speculation is far from necessary though, and the invitation to embark upon it possibly quite misleading. The truth is that nearly a fortnight of lying in open countryside in the summer heat would have made the task of forensic pathologists a great deal more difficult. The worry that the delay in finding these bodies may have meant the destruction of some vital piece of forensic evidence is very real.

Of course it is not the police, or the media, who are responsible for this most heinous of crimes. Hopefully the person or people who did this will be punished. But the police and media, in covering this story in such an emotive way, are guilty of lesser crimes, against all sorts of people. They are guilty of crimes of omission, when they decide not to give much coverage to missing people who may be older, or male, or less innocent and sweet than Holly and Jessica. They are guilty of crimes of distortion when they write, yet again, in their scandal-ridden, sleaze-filled pages that Britain has "lost its innocence" yet again.

The truth is simple. The media were on to this story so enthusiastically because it was very likely that it would be just the story that it was. If the press is really interested in finding missing young people, then there are thousands of them, too many for the media to see as good stories.

What has happened here is that a terrible crime has been focused on simply because it is so very, very rare, and has been treated as one that is of immediate relevance to all of us. "A terrible blight is falling across family life in this country," The Sun declares, as it demands that "such a tragedy must never be allowed to happen again". Such empty, emotive rhetoric.

We cannot rid the world of murder, even against children. But we can be thankful that we are never likely to experience such horror, and resist the imprecations of parts of the media, which suggest that we should wallow in the misery of others.

d.orr@independent.co.uk

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:05 AM
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Smug Git
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The arrested pair are their school caretaker (janitor) and his girlfriend, who is a classroom assitant at that school; both live on the school site (it is pretty common for the caretaker to live on the site over here).

This has been massive news in the UK since they disappeared (as all child disappearances and murders are). I, like Phil, was wondering how indentification was so difficult.

Morgana said in another thread that normally people panic and kill the kids that they have abducted (or else what they do to the kids kills them) and I think that she is right. Seems such a waste; the police were trying to leave a message on one of the girl's mobiles to the abductors (although I suspect that that was to get them to turn the phone on so that they could locate it) but they would have been dead by then.

This stuff is so uncommon that it is difficult to know what can be done about it; no matter how much care parents take, it seems to me that an adult with enough will can get hold of a kid if they want to. The news here is currently obsessed with paedophiles 'grooming' victims, particularly if it concerns use of the internerd (the media here love to have stories involving internerd). Discussion of this 'grooming' is pretty common now, on TV and in the press.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:08 AM
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Smug Git
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quote:
Originally posted by FuhQall
Am I just not up to date with what is happening because the people who are in custody are under investigation for the murder of the two girls, yet the bodies have not yet been ID'd. Are they being charged with an unrelated murder? If so, why are they being tagged to the two girls? Does "innocent until proven guilty" not feature in this at all?


You don't need to have a body to take someone for trial for murder, in any case.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:10 AM
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philjit
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btw, Fuhquall, I had the same concerns as you on Sunday after the two had spent 7 hours giving 'witness statements' to the police. I noticed on the way to work the way the tabloids had already tried and convicted them, had gone through their pasts and started an orchestrated character assassination of them both. Now it may turn out they are guilty who knows, but it may also turn out that they are not guilty and are infortunate people in the wrong place at the wrong time, who it even may turn out that the vital evidence against them cannot be found and so the case collapses. The problem is that if either of the last two situations occur the damage has already been done to them.

Interstingly, this point was also made in the TV show The Bill (if you watch it) recently, when one of the old school coppers that tried to help some kid get on the striaght and narrow suddenly got accused of being abusing the kid by the kid. It turned out the kids father was the actual abuser in the end but as they said in the show (which is of course fiction) the accusation has been made and 'mud sticks'. Whether one is innocent or not does not matter when it comes to issues of children and abuse ()be it sexual, violent or otherwise).

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:12 AM
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philjit
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quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
This has been massive news in the UK since they disappeared (as all child disappearances and murders are).


to quote uj: what about Milly?

The media has a new story to pick up on, which i think is what Deborah Orr is trying to say above in fairness. Milly is still missing, no body has been found. Has the investigation died, or is it just that people don't care anymore because she is only 1 where as these girls were 2.

Last edited by philjit on 08-20-2002 at 11:19 AM

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:15 AM
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Smug Git
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil


to quote uj: what about Milly?

The media has a new story to pick up on, which i think is what Deborah Orr is trying to say above in fairness. Milly is still missing, no body has been found. Has the investigation died, or is it just that people don't care anymore because she is only 1 where as these girls were 2.



I think that it is because they have no clues as to where she is (remember that other girl who disappeared, where they searched her uncle's building site and never found her?). If they hadn't gotten anywhere with these two in a couple of weeks, it would have died down too. I mean, there were pictures of Milly all over the South East of England (and many are still up), and not a trace of her. The media just can't sustain too long of 'no sign yet' before it needs something new to get its teeth into.

Myself, I think that something like Iraq is more important news, but the tabloids prefer stuff like this.

When they first thought that they had found bodies (they hadn't), one of the TV stations cut to their man on the spot and he was caught by surprise (to be on air) and was basically crying for the first part of his report, so I am not saying that the media don't care, it is just that eventually people realise that there is no chance of finding them or their murderer, barring fluke.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:24 AM
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philjit
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I think the tabloids tend to be rather fickle in these situations though. Selling copy is the primary goal after all. At least for the tabloids anyway.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:26 AM
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FuhQall
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I can't understand the "suspicion of murder" term, that could apply to everyone who has ever had contact with the girls. My question is why are they linked when the bodies have not been ID'd? This opens the press and police up for a monumental law suit if the case fails against them.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:48 AM
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philjit
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I would presume it is based on some form of evidence that we have not been privvy to as yet. For example inconsistencies in their witness testimonies or something like that.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:50 AM
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philjit
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At the end of the day FuhQuall the Police have to apply to the court for an extension to the questioning period and they have to provide the court with evidence that at least amounts to 'reasonable suspicion'. The court has granted that extension to their non-charged detention until tomorrow morning.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:52 AM
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Smug Git
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quote:
Originally posted by FuhQall
I can't understand the "suspicion of murder" term, that could apply to everyone who has ever had contact with the girls. My question is why are they linked when the bodies have not been ID'd? This opens the press and police up for a monumental law suit if the case fails against them.


You are arrested on 'suspicion of murder' and then charged with murder, if you are to be arrested at all. All it is saying is 'we think that you murdered someone, so we are going to arrest you'. You can sue for false arrest if it was a malicious arrest, I believe.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:53 AM
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FuhQall
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If "we" have not been privvy to it or it has been leaked from within the police, why have the police not protected the rights of the detainees by stating that the evidence is either false or true but not complete and was unfortunatley leaked?

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:54 AM
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philjit
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I am making a guess here, but I reckon that the evidence against them both currently is not enough to guarantee a conviction, and in these kind of cases the Police have to try to get the necessary evidence to get that guarantee, otherwise you end up with a dodgy situiation like that of Damiola Taylor, where the case rests on flaky evidence that a defence barrister would be able to tear apart. I doubt that they would be able to sue for false arrest if it turns out they are innocent because as far as I can see there arrest has been at the very least based on something of substance. We will find out tomorrow I guess.

edit: clearly FuhQuall I think there is something that came out of their seven hour witness questioning on Friday that has led the police to believe that they murdered the kids. Al;so, and I may be wrong on this, but have the police said how they found the bodies? I am not aware of how they were found. What I do know is that on Saturday morning they were both arrested on suspicion of murder and by Saturday afternoon the police had found two bodies.

Last edited by philjit on 08-20-2002 at 12:02 PM

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Old Post 08-20-2002 11:58 AM
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Smug Git
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quote:
Originally posted by FuhQall
If "we" have not been privvy to it or it has been leaked from within the police, why have the police not protected the rights of the detainees by stating that the evidence is either false or true but not complete and was unfortunatley leaked?


They rarely do comment, because anything that they say can prejudice a future trial. The identities of the detained are not currently protected in the law (unlike the identities of rape victims, say); although there have been some moves to bring such protection in, it is unlikely to happen on a large scale (if an accused who was a serial offender offended again and no one knew to be wary of them because news of their impending trial had been kept secret, the uproar would be potentially enormous). The problem is, of course, that mud does indeed stick.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 12:01 PM
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FuhQall
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I feel really sorry for the parents, the media has inflated the lack of ID into "what condition must those poor girls be in as to hamper the ID process" What must be going through their minds when they look at a family photo??? Poor people.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 12:02 PM
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urbanjunkie
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phil, that article you posted is so spot on.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 02:18 PM
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Cid2001
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i the above statements this is disturbing:

"The place where the bodies of Holly and Jessica were found is notorious as an area where dead children had been secreted before. Instead, as in the Sarah Payne case, the police have staged an enormous hunt for living girls, via the media and the telephone line. It has fallen to members of the public, independently, to discover the barely hidden bodies that ushered reality into the investigation. Now we're told that the bodies of these two girls are in such a state that formal identification will take days. This information subtly invites us to "imagine" again, this time to imagine what might have been done to the children by their killer to leave them in such a mess. "

specifically "The place where the bodies of Holly and Jessica were found is notorious as an area where dead children had been secreted before"...so this is a normal occurence in this town? they have spots that are known to be dumping grounds for dead kids...

thats fucked up.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 05:10 PM
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philjit
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the bodies were not found in the town. They were found some 20 miles away. I think though that the place they were found was a woodland, that probably, over hundred years has had its fair share of bodies buried there. A bit like the Moors in north England.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 05:22 PM
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urbanjunkie
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i'm begining to wonder if this will turn into a 'we know you did it, but we dont have any conclusive evidence to charge you' case.

still, the two suspects - if they do escape a jail sentence are gonna find it very diffcult to live their lives normally. innocent or guilty.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 05:29 PM
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philjit
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quote:
Originally posted by urbanjunkie
i'm begining to wonder if this will turn into a 'we know you did it, but we dont have any conclusive evidence to charge you' case.



funnily enough I just said that to someone here in the office. I reckon they will be released without charge tomorrow.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 05:31 PM
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urbanjunkie
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the worrying thing is, generally in cases like this forensic evidence is found in abundance. I’m not saying that people don’t ever get away with it – but just how clinical were the suspected couple in regards to the abduction and murder of the two girls?

The police say they found a couple of items of major interest. Doesn’t sound like these two items are in anyway blatantly incriminating to the arrested two.

From the bbc:

“Meanwhile, a five-hour post-mortem carried out on the bodies believed to be those of the two 10-year-old girls has proved "inconclusive".


I really feel for the parents and family of the two girls. I don’t want to even imagine how they would feel if the murderers got away with it.

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Old Post 08-20-2002 05:41 PM
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philjit
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They have charged the guy. He was also sectioned under the Mental Health Act 1983 in the early hours of Tuesday. The girl is still being questioned.

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