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did you understand it?
yes
no
but it wasnt proper english! *sips tea with pinky in air*
who is rumsfeld?
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: behind the irony curtain
Posts: 19147
drawing pictures

its not something I like to do, but Ill do it now cause this is a bit over played. "The British Plain English Campaign" (probably and epileptic donkey dance of stupidity...but who am I to say/never heard of em...not big on pompous snobbery) just gave ole Rumsfeld a "foot in mouth" award for the phrase quoted below...though to be fair to them Ive seen idiots of shapes and sizes moaning because they dont understand it, made their tiny brain rattle...what ever...so let me draw a picture.

quote:
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns,"


1) There are known knowns; there are things we know we know = they know that they do know certain things...some things they are sure they know, some things are clear, tangible and a matter of fact.

2) We also know there are known unknowns = they acknowledge that they dont know certain things...they know that they donít know them, those things are not clear, they are not known, not tangible, not a matter of known factÖand they know this. They are possibly things they want to know but are missing data...which is how they know they donít know themÖ


Now the merit of his statement, from what Iíve seen, hasnít been what has become an issue. What Iíve seen is masses of people touting it like it made no sense what so everÖlike he was speaking klingon (sp?) or something.


I think he said it very efficiently and it was clear to me, but like Ive said before, most people are stupid and you have to talk to them like they are children, like they are ignorant, like they dont know their asshole from their mouth...cause a lot of them donít.

and I say that with love.

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Last edited by euphorbia on 12-02-2003 at 02:57 AM

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Old Post 12-02-2003 02:51 AM
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Vegas
15 = micropenis

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Boston
Posts: 9382

Rumsfeld is not nearly the doobie smoker GW is. Now that man needs something in his mouth to prevent his words of wisdom from flowing too freely.

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Your whole "I dress like an office drone and act respectable and then sit on forum where we discuss urethra fucking and public torture" bit still creeps me out. I bet it would creep out your co-workers even more.

-m

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Old Post 12-02-2003 03:04 AM
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Musashi
Fluffy Bunny

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 866

from here:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...odd_rumsfeld_dc

quote:

"Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there things we know we know," Rumsfeld told the briefing.

"We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."



makes a lot less sense when taken as a full quote

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Old Post 12-02-2003 03:15 AM
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: behind the irony curtain
Posts: 19147

quote:
Originally posted by Musashi
from here:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...odd_rumsfeld_dc



makes a lot less sense when taken as a full quote



good show.

and here is where I got my motivation for this thread: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3254852.stm

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Old Post 12-02-2003 03:18 AM
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J E B Stuart
Administrator

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beyond Mason-Dixon Line
Posts: 31287
Talking

Heh. I ran across that story ealier today and even thought about startin' a thread with it. I'm glad you did, though, 'cause you got tits.

Anyway, I read his quotes and I don't get what the hubub is all about. What Rummy said sounded very similar to something I studied years ago called the Johari Window.

So, yeah, he made sense t'me. Perhaps the media's just takin' a short breather from pokin' at President Bush. Fresh meat 'n' all that. So, carry on, Rummy, carry on.

Amen.

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Old Post 12-02-2003 03:21 AM
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3MTA3
Same Tired Monkey

Registered: Apr 2003
Location: I cant say I buy this completely,
Posts: 3062

Psshh...thats simple game theory...how the fuck did they give those 2 douchebags credit??

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Old Post 12-02-2003 03:36 AM
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billgerat
Hope-nosis

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: ObamaNation
Posts: 26434

Let's not forget this runner-up pearl of wisdom:

"I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman," - Arnold Schwarzenegger

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Old Post 12-02-2003 03:36 AM
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J E B Stuart
Administrator

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beyond Mason-Dixon Line
Posts: 31287

quote:
Originally posted by 3MTA3
Psshh...thats simple game theory...how the fuck did they give those 2 douchebags credit??

Probably 'cause they showed their tits.

Amen.

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Old Post 12-02-2003 03:38 AM
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billgerat
Hope-nosis

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: ObamaNation
Posts: 26434

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Old Post 12-02-2003 04:15 AM
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Vegas
15 = micropenis

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Boston
Posts: 9382

Johari window! Man, I think that I will be reminded of that thing until the day I die. I can never escape it.

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Your whole "I dress like an office drone and act respectable and then sit on forum where we discuss urethra fucking and public torture" bit still creeps me out. I bet it would creep out your co-workers even more.

-m

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Old Post 12-02-2003 04:16 AM
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J E B Stuart
Administrator

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beyond Mason-Dixon Line
Posts: 31287
Talking

quote:
Originally posted by Vegas
Johari window! Man, I think that I will be reminded of that thing until the day I die. I can never escape it.

Glad t'oblige, ol' pal. Here's a Dickel pernt fer yer stockin'.

Amen.

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Old Post 12-02-2003 04:29 AM
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SocialParasite
wallet.dat is where it at

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: fuck you daaaaaaaaad
Posts: 24496

I think that all Rummy does is talk in circles so that he can dodge answering those tough questions.

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Old Post 12-02-2003 05:40 AM
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cw
cuntacular wench

Registered: Apr 2003
Location: . o O
Posts: 7539
Re: drawing pictures

quote:
Originally posted by euphorbia
its not something I like to do, ... most people are stupid and you have to talk to them like they are children, like they are ignorant, like they dont know their asshole from their mouth...cause a lot of them donít.

and I say that with love.



Lame. [P]

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Old Post 12-02-2003 06:04 AM
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Caffeine
Caffeine

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 7118

euphorbia: Do you ever feel as if it's like they're talking to you in a very personal way?

No matter.

I thought it was mildly clear.

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Old Post 12-02-2003 06:35 AM
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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13056

phorbs darling, that's a misquote. He actually said:

quote:
"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know"

Audio




Your misquote is actually a condensed and more "plain english version" of the original quote (in fact your misquote would probably not have even won the award). However, the original quote did deserve the award as it mangled the english language and made something very simple (as you rightly pointed out) sound unecessarily more complicated than was needed.

The issue is not that it was not understandable. Nor was it that it was not correct English. It was that it was over convulated use of the english language.... something lawyers are very good at (sorry JEB).

Last edited by philjit on 12-02-2003 at 08:50 AM

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Old Post 12-02-2003 08:21 AM
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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13056

Incidentally, the "epileptic donkey dance of stupidity" and "pompous snobs" at the British Plain English Campaign spend most of their time lobbying for changes in the Insurance sector to make policies more compact and easily digestable for consumers, rather than having polices written in legalise as they currently are.

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Old Post 12-02-2003 08:45 AM
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 36297

The Plain English Campaign are not about snobbery, they are about using plain English (not overcomplicating expression for effect, which is probably more common with 'snobs' than 'plain English' is. If they are snobs, they are at least being snobbish about something worthwhile, which is to say, using English to communicate clearly').

Rumsfeld's quote was badly expressed, although the idea is fair enough. Seems like a fair comment from the Plain English campaign, although Rumsfeld himself has said stupider things (as I mentioned in Phil's duplicate thread, the one about 'he is in Afghanistan, he isn't in Afghanistan, or he's dead' wasn't even an interesting point, although it was clearly enough expressed, I guess, not to qualify).

Rmsfeld's quote actually sounds even worse when you hear him actually saying it, than it does when it is written down.

Politicians are probably the worst offenders for mangling clear English to avoid questions and create misleading effects (although I am not sure why Rumsfeld explained this so badly, unless it was just something that he hadn't thought clearly about explaining). What Rumsfeld was expressing was actually a good point (although not a terribly sophisticated one, or one with which most intelligent people will be unfamiliar).

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Last edited by Smug Git on 12-02-2003 at 09:26 AM

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Old Post 12-02-2003 08:54 AM
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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13056

Personally, I think Chris Patten's comment that "the British Conservative Party has committed political suicide and are now living to regret it" should have won.

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Old Post 12-02-2003 09:04 AM
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Vegas
15 = micropenis

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Boston
Posts: 9382

This thread was cool until Phil arrived.

We need a sign that Phil has entered and taken over a thread, to warn people like me. What he writes is scary.

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Your whole "I dress like an office drone and act respectable and then sit on forum where we discuss urethra fucking and public torture" bit still creeps me out. I bet it would creep out your co-workers even more.

-m

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Old Post 12-02-2003 12:34 PM
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 36297

The trophy



Past winners

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I want to catch something that I might be ashamed of

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Old Post 12-02-2003 01:32 PM
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Azrael
The Advocate

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 2573

I just saw the quote on the news and it made perfect sense to me. The news guy was playing up to the fact that the sentence was long and used big words. No wonder British youth think its cool to be a stupid fucktard.

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Old Post 12-02-2003 01:39 PM
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 36297

I think that the problem with it relates to the clarity of using a word as a noun and also as the adjective to describe that word, and doing it again and again.

The idea behind it is interesting enough (about the difference between being aware of gaps in our knowledge as compared to being unaware of the gaps), although it is pretty obvious (so preumably the communiciation should be best aimed at less cerebral). The Plain English campaign is about clear use of English to communicate (awards that they gave for good use of English aren't as publicised as the footinmouth award, even though most of the awards that they give every year are positive, because the media prefer the funny sort of stories).

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I want to live and I want to love
I want to catch something that I might be ashamed of

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Old Post 12-02-2003 01:44 PM
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: behind the irony curtain
Posts: 19147

quote:
Originally posted by Phil
Incidentally, the "epileptic donkey dance of stupidity" and "pompous snobs" at the British Plain English Campaign spend most of their time lobbying for changes in the Insurance sector to make policies more compact and easily digestable for consumers, rather than having polices written in legalise as they currently are.


Well having sat through a class for four hours today learning Virginia law, that is somewhat redeeming.

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taste the fucking rainbow & dont touch my junk.

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Old Post 12-02-2003 07:27 PM
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